Barbara's Questions about Anarchism

[Hogeye]

Hogeye - Taxes are the income of government - whose services you are so accustomed to using you forget who provides them. Just for starters, money itself - the medium of exchange that allows you to purchase your needs with the fruits of your labor - without having to go to each producer and barter however much they need of whatever you do to receive whatever you and they consider to be an equivalent amount of whatever they produce. Official measurements - which means when you acquire a pound of apples from producer A, it will be the same amount as if you acquired a pound of apples from producer B. Rules of interstate commerce - which, among many other things, means you and your goods won't be taxed just for crossing a state border. And, while I don't approve of the current size, nor what we are currently doing with the military (and I truly don't approve of the size of the military budget, nor the uses the money is being put to), to maintain our sovreignty, we need a military presence - otherwise while you wouldn't have to worry about taxation or regulation from the U.S. government, you would have taxation and regulations from some other government (probably Canada - or more likely, the northern states would come under Canada and the southern states, including AR, would be Mexican).

So how, besides taxes, are you going to pay for these, and many more services the government provides that you apparently think come from the good fairies?

Taxes are the income of government...

Yes. There are two ways to get income: 1) production/gift/exchange, the economic means, and 2) plunder, the political means. The State, unlike everybody else but private criminals, uses the political means. Franz Oppenheimer defined the State as "the organization of the political means."

... whose services you are so accustomed to using you forget who provides them.

The point is that, to the extent I'm taxed, I pay for them whether I want them or use them or not, without my consent. And whether I'm taxed or not, I suffer from the inefficiencies of govt monopolies and the dangers of the govt beast, from imprisonment by drug nazis to foreign terrorists the government has created.

Just for starters, money itself - the medium of exchange that allows you to purchase your needs with the fruits of your labor...

Money preceeds government. Money is simply the most liquid commodity. It can be anything from salt to shells, but most cultures settle on gold or silver. Government from the beginning has debased money. Early kings would get their "seigniorage" by clipping, underweighing, or adulterating coins with base metal. In modern times, governments use fiat money so they can inflate at will, with no need for backing. Of course, history indicates that fiat currencies are unsustainable - basically a Ponzi scheme. Here's an informative PDF: History of Money and Banking in the US

Official measurements - which means when you acquire a pound of apples...

You're kidding, right? Most systems of measurement came about through social interaction, invisible hand processes, the same processes that give us language, art, science, and so on. These emergent orders evolve without decrees from rulers and State planning.

Rules of interstate commerce...

Yes, that's a great example of voluntary alternatives to statism. The rules of commerce were developed from Law Merchant - a private legal system used by merchants in the sailing ship days. Another non-statist legal system was Anglo-Saxon common law. Then there's Celtic Ireland, the Thing system of Iceland, and the stateless law of the Not-so-wild American West.

You and your goods won't be taxed just for crossing a state border.

Yes, I look forward to a free market, without States engaging in protectionism and economic nationalism.

So how, besides taxes, are you going to pay for these, and many more services the government provides

Good question. All the valid services currently provided by the State should instead be provided voluntarily, i.e. on a free market. Let's look at the services you brought up.

Money - There are many private currencies nowadays, thanks to strong cryptography. E-gold is the most popular digital currency, but there are many competitors. For local meatspace use, there is Liberty Dollar, as well as many labor-based local currencies like Ithaca Dollars, BREAD (Berkeley bucks) and LETS systems. Even airline travel miles are a form of private currency. Finally, there are silver rounds - privately minted silver coins - the poor man's hedge againt dollar-inflation.

Official measurements As noted, this is really a matter of customary practice, and sorts itself out pretty well. Probably for a lot of things, scientific and professionaly organizations would declare standards, rather than a government agency. Which to some degree is what happens already. We just skip the government blessing the result part. In other cases, the market settles it, as it does for digital media formats. It didn't take a govt order to have a standard CD or DVD format.

Rules of Interstate Commerce - Historically, States have been the major impediment to freedom of trade. Without States, I see highways between peoples flowing with goods, unimpeded by immigration nazis and customs agents stealing goods, preventing transport, demanding tolls, taxes and duties. Instead, the road companies would probably inspect enough to ensure their roads were relatively safe. An anarcho-capitalist society would leave commerce to the people who do it. Most decisions would probably be made by airline, train, and trucking firm owners, on the basis of what their customers wanted.

[Hogeye]

It is not that the private sector can't do things like education, banking, transportation, and so forth, but they won't. They had their shot at it and basically failed on the larger scale - whether due to graft, corruption, or ineptitude - government involvement is a RESPONSE to vital needs not being met. (History, NOT being bunk, shows this very clearly.)

I think you need to reread your history! Government intervention did not generally begin due to failure of voluntary organization. On the contrary, government intervention was generally ramped up during crises - usually war or economic crises - and as schemes to enrich politicians, cronies, and special interests. (Cf: Crisis and Leviathan, Robt. Higgs.)

As an illustration, here's a wonderful article by Roderick Long called How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis. I don't see how you can say private banking did worse than government intervention. Before the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, bank failures were sporatic, localized, and short. After the Fed "put a penny in the monetary fuse box" we got the massive shifts in monetary supply in the late 20s and the Great Depression. In the hard money era, the buying power of the dollar increased slightly; in the fiat money era, the dollar has lost 98% of its value. Barbara, your blind faith in government is ... amazing. You went to a government school, didn't you?

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

I don't have blind faith in anything manmade - power corrupts all organizations. However, government itself is a response to the abuses of those volutary free market forces groups. I have never said, and never will say, that any specific government cannot become as corrupt as whatever it was created or designed to control - an unfortunately growing number of segments, of our current government are proof of that. However, government itself is not the enemy. The major balancing act is to keep government powerful enough to prevent megacorporations from controlling the market, but weak enough to be kept in line by the populace. It is true that right now we are close enough to the fascist edge to go over, but I haven't given up hope (yet) that we aren't passed the tipping point.

Market forces put brick powder in cocoa and sawdust in flour. Market forces created the "lb you sell me is less than the lb I sell you" syndrom. Market forces sells milk from cows so sick they're held up by slings and meat from animals that "just fell over". Market forces puts too much sand in the concrete or builds on unstable lands. Market forces sells snake oil as "cure-alls". Market forces sells "insurance" and sends its thugs around to show you why you need it. Market forces charges 25% or more to loan you money, but pays 3% or less if you loan them money. Market forces are in it to make a buck (the value of which is established and guaranteed by government) and it's all "Buyer Beware" - no matter if it's something the buyer has no way of "being ware" about. Government came into being to protect the ordinary citizen from the power of extreme market forces, amongst other things.

Because war always concentrates power, wars have a tendency to push a government towards despotism, and it requires a well-educated - and determined - populace to take the reins (reigns) back once the war is over. If the war goes on long enough, people get used to despotism and don't pull the government back until it is too late and revolution is the only answer. Power corrupts, but it doesn't make the premise incorrect. Too much water will kill you - not enough will kill you. Balance in water is necessary - so is balance in government. But government is as necessary to society as water is to the individual in that society.

As to schools, I attended 8 publics schools in Houston, TX, Austin Community College, University of TX Austin, University of AR Fayetteville, University of MO KC, University of KS Overland Park - all of which are publically funded. My specialites are education, reading, general science, and general social studies (middle school endorsement). I have taught at public and private schools in TX, AR, WI, and KS.

[Doug]

Market forces put brick powder in cocoa and sawdust in flour. Market forces created the "lb you sell me is less than the lb I sell you" syndrom. Market forces sells milk from cows so sick they're held up by slings and meat from animals that "just fell over". Market forces puts too much sand in the concrete or builds on unstable lands. Market forces sells snake oil as "cure-alls".

DOUG
Yes, but market forces also got us the Food and Drug Administration in 1862. It got us drug testing and the banning of alleged medicines that killed many people or made them seriously ill. The system is not perfect, but without it, we would be much poorer regarding our choices as consumers.

And let me make this clear: Anyone who thinks that "market forces" would get rid of alleged medicines that actually kill people or make them sick, or that "market forces" would weed out medicines that do absolutely nothing, then such a person has no idea how the market works.

MANY "remedies" that do not work or that harm people have been AND CONTINUE TO BE very popular.

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

Doug - that's my point - Market Forces don't police themselves. Government intervention, however imperfect, is a response to the inability of Market Forces to protect citizens from fraud and other abuses of the marketplace, or to address issues that Market Forces don't (like government's universal education v market forces' elitist education only for the wealthy).

That said, on the other hand, we still need to inspect the inspectors - specific governments, like any other human organization, can be and have been corrupted. Government as principle is a good thing. Government in fact will always need work, and it is the duty of citizens to do that work of keeping government as close to honest/ethical as is humanly possible.

[Hogeye]

Anyone who thinks that "market forces" would get rid of alleged medicines that actually kill people or make them sick, or that "market forces" would weed out medicines that do absolutely nothing, then such a person has no idea how the market works.

Right. The market is not nirvana. What the market does do is provide the right incentives. If a drug company sells adulterated drugs, they generally go out of business. Reputation for quality is the main asset of a drug company. Similarly, a drug company that sells placebos as "real" drugs will, ceterus paribus, lose business to more competent and honest competitors.

Government intervention, however imperfect, is a response to the inability of Market Forces to protect citizens from fraud and other abuses of the marketplace.

That's the statist line, but when you look at the facts, government regulatory agencies make people less safe, and were originated (and are still used) by established drug companies as a barrier to entry to potential competitors. Sure, the FDA and such authoritarian outfits may reduce error type 1, of allowing a dangerous drug to be sold. But they greatly increase the incidence of error type 2, not allowing a drug that could be useful. And forbidding information that may save people's lives. E.g. It has been long known that taking aspirin can reduce the threat of heart attack, but until recently it was illegal for aspirin sellers to put this information on their packaging. Regarding type one vs. type two error: For every Thalidomide, there are 20 cancer/AIDS/whatever drugs that could have saved lives and helped people that are outlawed. More lives are lost through type 2 error than are saved by forbidding drugs the State doesn't like. Now your FDA-condoned drug nazi assholes are going to murder Steve Kubby - a replay of their murder of Peter McWilliams a few years ago.* Barbara, there was no public demand or need for the FDA; it was a power play by big government and existing big business, the two greatest enemies of the free market.

If a firm fuks up, it goes out of business. If a government agency fuks up, it gets a new infusion of plunder cash, because its fukup is clear evidence (by the statist mentality) that it needs more money. Can you see the perverse incentives here? When Enron fuks up, it goes out of business; when FEMA(New Orleans) or US intelligence services (9/11) fuk up, they are rewarded with lavish new funding and powers. What's wrong with this picture?

In short, the incentives for private business are consonent the general welfare, while the incentives of State are perverse, and contrary to public interest. And as Barbara points out, the State tends to grow like a cancer, especially during crises.

*Steve Kubby is a marijuana activist who requested asylum in Canada because he needs to take marijuana to survive his rare form of cancer. A few days ago, Canada turned him over to US authorities.