fayfreethinkers.com

More Atheists Shout It From the Rooftops
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
The New York Times
April 26, 2009

CHARLESTON, S.C. — Two months after the local atheist organization here put up a billboard saying “Don’t Believe in God? You Are Not Alone,” the group’s 13 board members met in Laura and Alex Kasman’s living room to grapple with the fallout.

The problem was not that the group, the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry, had attracted an outpouring of hostility. It was the opposite. An overflow audience of more than 100 had showed up for their most recent public symposium, and the board members discussed whether it was time to find a larger place.

And now parents were coming out of the woodwork asking for family-oriented programs where they could meet like-minded nonbelievers.

“Is everyone in favor of sponsoring a picnic for humanists with families?” asked the board president, Jonathan Lamb, a 27-year-old meteorologist, eliciting a chorus of “ayes.”

More than ever, America’s atheists are linking up and speaking out — even here in South Carolina, home to Bob Jones University, blue laws and a legislature that last year unanimously approved a Christian license plate embossed with a cross, a stained glass window and the words “I Believe” (a move blocked by a judge and now headed for trial).

They are connecting on the Internet, holding meet-ups in bars, advertising on billboards and buses, volunteering at food pantries and picking up roadside trash, earning atheist groups recognition on adopt-a-highway signs.

From here.

DAR
Listening to Arlen Spectre on the radio today, as he discussed his decision to leave the GOP, it was interesting to here him say that what was sabotaging their party were the ones on the hard right who were organized and politically active. They aren't majority by any means but they are the ones that show up and screw everything up. The moderates don't show.

Maybe we need to focus more on getting the heretic more politically active. Seems like very good timing.

Darrel wrote:Maybe we need to focus more on getting the heretic more politically active. Seems like very good timing.

Hi all,

I myself am a heretic.

I am not willing to become politically active on that front, look what happened to the most famous heretic of them all-Jesus.

Graybeard

Yea, but that was rigged, that was supposed to happen to him (Jesus), right?

Tim

tmiller51 wrote:Yea, but that was rigged, that was supposed to happen to him (Jesus), right?

Tim

Hi Tim,

(IMHO) I don't believe that Jesus was tortured and put to death on the cross because God wanted that to happen. It was man that made that happen. It was the church at the time that called for his death because they were afraid if the people listened to him, which is what God wanted I'm sure, they would lose their power and influence.

I think if Jesus came back to live another life among us today he would meet the same kind of hateful resist from the church.

The churches better listen up. Looking back at his death it is a lessen for you.

"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
oh lord please don't let me be misunderstood" Eric Burden and the Animal

Graybear

Welcome Graybear, glad you are here.

graybear wrote: (IMHO) I don't believe that Jesus was tortured and put to death on the cross because God wanted that to happen. It was man that made that happen.

DAR
God doesn't get what he wants? Man can make things happen, to God's son, that God doesn't "want?"

Let me share a little story that I think explains my opinion about this. Check it out, see what you think.

****
Hell
-- by Marshall J. Gauvin

Millions of ages ago -- before the world was made, before the first star had sent its silver stream throughout the blank vault of space, before a ray of sunlight had kissed a growing leaf, before the song of a bird had gladdened the air of day, before the universe had heard of the sound of a human voice -- millions of ages ago, when the boundless vast was empty, cold and dark, god, the infinite father of all that was to be, lived somewhere in the pulseless regions of immensity, all alone. He was without origin. The years of his age were successions of eternity’s. From time without beginning he had ruled over an infinite empire of nothingness. Ever in his prime, he was, at the time our story begins, millions of ages ago, in the zenith of his godhood. He was in every way a perfect being. In stature he had the sculptured grace of Apollo. His brow was high and noble. His eyes were thoughtful and tender. A flowing white beard swept his breast, hiding a heart that was a fountain of affection. The Patriarch of eternity, the master of infinity, he sat upon the throne of time, surrounded by a shoreless vast, containing nothing but himself. Sitting there, with his chin resting upon his hand, thoughtfully surveying the silent scene, while his prophetic eyes looked though the infinite vista of the future, he made up his mind to create the universe.

[snip...]

In outlining his plan of creation, god said to himself: "I will fill the limitless heavens with millions of glowing suns, with myriad’s of constellations of gleaming stars, with countless whirling worlds. I will clothe these worlds with the varied beauty of vegetation, fill their forests and their fields with animals and birds, and crown them with the master piece of my workmanship -- man and woman. One of these worlds shall be the earth and the man and woman I shall make for that world I shall call Adam and Eve. These shall become the father and mother of all future generations of men. I will make them innocent and perfect. In their utter simplicity of mind, they shall know neither good nor evil. But I will implant within their hearts a yearning after knowledge. I will confine them in a garden, and near them I will place a tree of knowledge of good and evil, as a temptation and a snare. I will warn them not to touch the fruit of this direful tree; but I know that in their ignorance they will be unable to understand and that through blind stumbling they will, perforce of circumstances, disobey my command. Not only so; I will compel them to disobey; for I will send into the garden a serpent, a suave devil, gifted with human speech, to tempt them to their fall. This fall shall have infinite consequences. It shall send Adam and Eve and the endless generations of their children to everlasting torment, in a hell which I will make for them. But of the innumerable millions of the sons and daughters of Adam thus headed for hell, I will manage finally to save a few, and the salvation of these shall be accomplished through my own suffering. Four thousand and four years after the fall of the first man and woman, after the opening of the wide gates of hell, after the first movement of the endless procession of mankind towards my chambers of torture, I will go down to earth, become my own father, and be born a virgin's babe. I shall grow to manhood in an obscure village among the Jewish peasantry. Then I will preach a gospel of salvation; astonish my fellowmen with curious miracles; be the world's gentlest teacher and noblest benefactor. Yet I shall arouse the wrath of bitter enemies, who shall crucify me, and amid agony and despair, grief-stricken and brokenhearted, I shall die in shame upon the cruel cross. In this manner, by paying to myself the price of man's redemption; by dying that man whom I have wronged might live -- I will atone for the sins of those who believe in my strange performances and translate them from hell to the endless joys of heaven. But all those who doubt or deny that I have done these things, shall help to swell the throng of the eternally damned. And then, to crown my behavior with the proof of my infinite wisdom and holiness, I shall, throughout the everlasting ages, gaze from the battlement of heaven upon the eternal pain of the countless millions I have sent to hell; and while time lasts, I shall listen to their shrieks and moans, without shedding a tear of pity for their misfortune without feeling a touch of sorrow for what I have done, without even thinking of uttering a word of pardon for the helpless victims of my unutterable cruelty."

[...]

This is the soul and life of Christianity. Deny this, and you assert that Christianity is false. A being who could not see the end from the beginning would not have infinite knowledge. A being who could not mold all destinies to his will would not have infinite power. And a being limited in knowledge and power could not be a god. If the universe is controlled by a god, that god must have known in the eternity past what the infinite future would be and he must have intended and designed the occurrence of all things that have happened. Therefore, if man is damned, it is god who has damned him. If god died to save mankind, god killed himself to save his own victims. Nor will the old nonsense about man's free agency remove god's guilt; for if god gave man freedom, he knew how that freedom would be used, and he knew that it could be used in no other way than as he intended. Admit the existence of god and you make him responsible for everything that happens. Deny this responsibility and you deny god. So I insist that if Christianity be true, the keystone of the sacred arch, the central secret of the divine plot, is the tragic fact that god designed the damnation of mankind and then sacrificed himself to save a few.

Behold the unfathomable wisdom, the transcendent beauty, the comprehensive love and tenderness of such a scheme! Who is there so blind as not to see that the highest reach of human wisdom signally fails to measure up to this exalted standard? Who is there so dull as not to recognize the force of this manifestation of perfect love? Who is there so base as not to fall upon his knees in adoration of the god who so loved the world that he went to all this trouble to damn nearly everybody in it? Ah, surely we are stubborn and perverse, blind to our own interests and contumelious towards god when we refuse to ally ourselves with the churches which exist for no other purpose than to teach that god killed himself to save us from the hell to which, in his love, he is going to send us unless we believe.

--From "Where Is Hell? in another world or in this? by Marshall J. Gauvin. Originally published by Peter Eckler in New York in 1926,

The common "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16) implies to me that god meant for his son to be sacrificed.

In Christian theology, the death of Jesus by crucifixion is a core event. It represents a critical aspect of the doctrine of salvation, portraying the suffering and death of the Messiah as necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

Wikipedia

I don't know if you agree with this common understanding of Christianity, but I wonder if Jesus was not put to death, what becomes of the salvation as advertised by most Christians?

Tim

Darrel wrote:Welcome Graybear, glad you are here.

graybear wrote: (IMHO) I don't believe that Jesus was tortured and put to death on the cross because God wanted that to happen. It was man that made that happen.

****
Hell
-- by Marshall J. Gauvi

This is the soul and life of Christianity. Deny this, and you assert that Christianity is false.

Hi Dar,

Thank you for the kind welcome. I think I am going to enjoy throwing my two cents in. I hope nobody takes offense at anything I say. I don't ever mean to be preaching. I'm just sayin' what I think.

Thank you, also, for that nice rendition of what the christian churches believe. It's pretty close to what I have always thought about hell.

I guess I disagree with Mr. Gauves'--you are not a christian unless you believe in hell.

Hell doesn't make any sense to me. In my introduction I said I am a theist. I am also a christian. I don't believe Jesus said anything about hell in his teaching. His message was peace, love and a brotherhood of man with God as our all loving father. A loving father could never condemn one of his children to eternal damnation (IMHO). He may not always be able to stop bad things from happening to his children but that doesn't mean he doesn't care.

God gives us freedom of choice. There are many paths that we can take in this life and some lead to suffering.

All a father can do is point his children in the right direction and let them find their own way.

There is a big difference between Gods will and the overall will of man right now and it's causing a lot of suffering in the world.

Graybear

tmiller51 wrote:The common "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16) implies to me that god meant for his son to be sacrificed.

In Christian theology, the death of Jesus by crucifixion is a core event. It represents a critical aspect of the doctrine of salvation, portraying the suffering and death of the Messiah as necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

Wikipedia

I don't know if you agree with this common understanding of Christianity, but I wonder if Jesus was not put to death, what becomes of the salvation as advertised by most Christians?

Tim

Hi Tim,

No I don't. That's what makes me a heritic.

As for salvation (IMHO) our salvation is the realization of the brother of man and all the love that goes with it. The extent to which we can align ourselves with this brotherhood of love determines our chances of survival of this life.

Graybear

graybear wrote: I guess I disagree with Mr. Gauves'--you are not a christian unless you believe in hell.

DAR
I agree. Lot's of Christians don't believe in hell, probably most of them.

GRAY
I don't believe Jesus said anything about hell in his teaching.

DAR
Well the only book that purports to report anything Jesus ever said, says he did. Maybe you believe he didn't say the things attributed to him in those verses? Here are a few examples in this excerpt from my book:

***
Scriptures affirming some form of afterlife

This first example clearly informs us that the soul
exists separate from the body and is not destroyed with
the destruction of the body.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able
to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28 also
Luke 12:4-5

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus tells
of a man who dies and yet remains in a state of very
conscious torment. If the dead are "conscious of nothing
at all," using such an example would be misleading,
inaccurate and absurd.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was
carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich
man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up
his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar
off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said,
Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool
my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (27) ...
send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren;
that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into
this place of torment. Luke 16:22-24,27-28.

The dead are often spoken of as "gnashing their teeth,"
an act entirely inconsistent with non-existence (or
unconsciousness).
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into
outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing
of teeth. Matt. 8:12

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they
shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a
furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of
teeth...So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels
shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the
just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there
shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 13:41-
42, 49-50 see also Matt. 22:13, 24:51, 25:30

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,
when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and
all the prophets, in the kingdom of god, and you
yourselves thrust out. Luke 13:28


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:... And these shall
go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
into life eternal. Matt. 25:41, 46.

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for
thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to
go into hell, into the fire that never shall be
quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire
is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it
off:... [verse 47, "eyes" etc] Mark 9:43-45

...If any man worship the beast and his image, and
receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The
same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God...and
he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the
presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the
Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up
for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor
night, who worship the beast and his image... Rev.
14:9-11

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the
lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false
prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night
for ever and ever... And whosoever was not found
written in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire. Rev. 20:10, 15.

graybear wrote: I don't believe Jesus said anything about hell in his teaching. His message was peace, love and a brotherhood of man with God as our all loving father. A loving father could never condemn one of his children to eternal damnation (IMHO).

DOUG
Since (as Darrel points out) the Bible depicts Jesus endorsing the existence of hell, you must not believe everything the Bible says about Jesus. Can you share with us how you tell what parts of the New Testament are true and which are false?

graybear wrote:
He may not always be able to stop bad things from happening to his children but that doesn't mean he doesn't care.

DOUG
If God can't stop bad things from happening, you must believe that God is not all-powerful. Do you also believe that God's knowledge is limited? If so, how do you know these things? What evidence do you have for believing that God is one way as opposed to another way?

Hi Dar and Doug,

I don't "Know" anything for sure. It may all be an illusion.

There is another book that claims to chronicle the life of Jesus. Check it out. Truth Book.com

It doest't really have a lot about hell but look at what it says about science.

Graybear

Graybear13 wrote:Hi Dar and Doug,

I don't "Know" anything for sure. It may all be an illusion.

DAR
That's true. But we do have so pretty good ideas about some things don't we? Just because we don't have absolute certainty doesn't mean we want to "throw the baby out with the bath water."

There is another book that claims to chronicle the life of Jesus. Check it out. Truth Book.com :wink:

DAR
My parents (dragging me along) used to go door to door selling "The Truth Book" back in the late 60's and early 70's. The full title was "The Truth that Leads to Everlasting Life" but they just called it "The Truth book." It was a profoundly popular book. I think it sold over 100 million copies and was listed in the Guinness book of world records as one of the top sellers. Ironically, most of the people who were selling it, are dead now. That wasn't the plan, but "the truth," otherwise known as reality, really isn't interested in adapting itself to the silly little stories us humans like to write. That book wasn't remotely "The Truth" and in fact was full of howlers (and false predictions). The "Truth book" you are talking about is the Urantia book. How likely is it that a book that first appeared sometime after 1924 really has some new accurate information about a Jewish guy 1,900 years earlier? Not very.

It doest't really have a lot about hell but look at what it says about science. 8)

DAR
Is this where you learned that gravity is "a push rather than a pull?" I sent that along to my personal physicist. He didn't respond to the email or drop by here but he did mention to me over dinner how it was interesting to observe that your certainty was so high ("I say absolutely yes") considering the profound implausibility of your claims. And "profound implausibility" is putting a lot of sugar on it.

D.

Darrel wrote:Is this where you learned that gravity is "a push rather than a pull?" I sent that along to my personal physicist. He didn't respond to the email or drop by here but he did mention to me over dinner how it was interesting to observe that your certainty was so high ("I say absolutely yes") considering the profound implausibility of your claims. And "profound implausibility" is putting a lot of sugar on it.D.

DOUG
Because the expansion of the universe is accelerating, and no one knows exactly why this is, some physicists have speculated that there is some push effect being exerted by some yet-undiscovered force in the universe. But this is different from saying that gravity itself is that force. I'm not aware of any physicists that hold that position.

graybear wrote: ... The extent to which we can align ourselves with this brotherhood of love determines our chances of survival of this life.

Graybear

I'm not sure what this means; as individuals we will live longer if we follow some of the things that Jesus said as written in a book written decades after he might have lived?

That should be easily testable by comparing the longevity of countries containing high percentages of Christians vs. those with either atheists or other religions.

Tim

tmiller51 wrote:That should be easily testable by comparing the longevity of countries containing high percentages of Christians vs. those with either atheists or other religions.Tim

DOUG
The less Christian belief, the higher the life expectancy in the major countries. See for yourself.

WHO tables for longevity


And in the U.S., the more religiosity in the region, the lower the life expectancy:

Hummer, Robert, Richard Rogers, Charles Nam and Christopher Ellison.
1999 “Religious Involvement and U. S. and Adult Mortality.” Demography 36: 273-85.

Cited in:
"Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies" by Gregory S. Paul, Journal of Religion and Society.
Online here.

tmiller51 wrote:

graybear wrote: ... The extent to which we can align ourselves with this brotherhood of love determines our chances of survival of this life.

Graybear

I'm not sure what this means; as individuals we will live longer if we follow some of the things that Jesus said as written in a book written decades after he might have lived?

That should be easily testable by comparing the longevity of countries containing high percentages of Christians vs. those with either atheists or other religions.

Tim

Hi Tim ,

I believe in the possibility that the sum-total of my life experience is my soul and it can potentially live on after the passing of this body.

Greybear

I believe in the possibility that the sum-total of my life experience is my soul and it can potentially live on after the passing of this body.

I think Shirley Maclaine believes that too. I don't.

Tim

tmiller51 wrote:

I believe in the possibility that the sum-total of my life experience is my soul and it can potentially live on after the passing of this body.

I think Shirley Maclaine believes that too. I don't.

Tim

Hi Tim

"It's just an ordinary story 'bout the way things go
round and around nobody knows
but the highway roles on forever
there ain't no way to stop the water ..." Rodney Crowell

Or I'm a Fool

I believe in the possibility.

Graybear

p.s. Just checkin' to see if there is any sense of humor
out there.

Humor is the sugar so sweet.

graybear13 wrote: I believe in the possibility.

DAR
As for life after death, I'm for it.

But if decide to go with the best evidence, as opposed what would be nice, it doesn't look good. Consider:

The Case Against Immortality.