Split: Marijuana Research and Research Funding

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

Tobacco also trashes your liver - a fact usually hidden behind the assumption that anyone with liver damage is a heavy drinker. Tobacco and alcohol together do more damage to the liver than either apart. Coffee, tobacco, and alcohol stress certain parts of the system so much as to say they all three "eat" B vitamins and magnesium, less so (but not much less so) vitamin C and potassium - so if you are going to do any of the three, you'd best be supplementing your diet. If you're going to all of them, you'd best be supplementing your diet a whole lot! I have seen no studies as to marijuana & liver damage, but all toxins are filtered through the liver, so if you accept ANY toxins in marijuana, you will have some liver damage. I'm bringing this up because heavy/over users of tobacco and alcohol (and to a lesser extent, coffee) are much more likely to die or become disabled due to liver damage than brain damage.

[Hogeye]

Fuel for the fire...

ANNUAL AMERICAN DEATHS CAUSED BY DRUGS
TOBACCO ........................ 400,000
ALCOHOL ........................ 100,000
ALL LEGAL DRUGS ................ 20,000
ALL ILLEGAL DRUGS .............. 15,000
CAFFEINE ....................... 2,000
ASPIRIN ........................ 500
MARIJUANA ...................... 0
----------------------------------------
Source: United States government...
National Institute on Drug Abuse,
Bureau of Mortality Statistics

"Acute use of cannabis does not seem to affect kidney or liver function or alter basal metabolism.407" - Canadian Government Commission of Inquiry - Cannabis Report 1972

After googling "cannabis liver" I see mostly 1) medicinal marijuana articles pointing out that cannabis is less hard on your liver than alternative medicines for e.g. chemotherapy patients, and 2) you shouldn't smoke cannabis a lot if you have Hepatitus C.

Based on the findings, daily cannabis smoking should be avoided in patients with chronic hepatitis C. ... Cannabis smoking has no impact on the liver in someone who does not have liver disease.MAPINC

I advise young people who want a recreational drug to choose cannabis over alcohol. Alcohol definitely has more health risk, but has less legal risk. Still, an occasional fine or night in jail is better than cirrosis of the liver or alcoholism. The risk of 'future problems' from alcohol is generally given as one in ten users; for cannabis it's more like one in a hundred. (Think of all the people that toked in their youth, but don't anymore.)


Here's an informative page. Table 1 compares "hazards of different drugs:" Opiates, cocaine, alcohol, benzodiazepines, cannabis, and tobacco. (Cannabis comes out most benign.) Another table on the same page called "Comparing Addictive Qualities of Popular Drugs" also indicates cannabis is most benign, with caffeine second.

[Savonarola]

"Acute use of cannabis does not seem to affect kidney or liver function or alter basal metabolism.407" - Canadian Government Commission of Inquiry - Cannabis Report 1972

I don't have any particular reason to doubt this, but -- specifically -- what do they mean by acute? While binge drinking is certainly dangerous, neither binge drinking nor having a drink or two on occasion qualifies as "chronic." And a drink or two on occasion isn't exactly detrimental...
Also, this says nothing about chronic/regular use.

After googling "cannabis liver" I see mostly 1) medicinal marijuana articles pointing out that cannabis is less hard on your liver than alternative medicines for e.g. chemotherapy patients,

Well, nobody gets the urge to go out and use chemo to get high. This is a pretty unrealistic comparison.

and 2) you shouldn't smoke cannabis a lot if you have Hepatitus C.

This of course isn't really a strike against cannabis, since there are lots of things -- including alcohol -- that hepatitis patients should avoid.

I advise young people who want a recreational drug to choose cannabis over alcohol.

Frankly, I think this is asinine. If they absolutely, positively MUST take up drug use, "advise" them to be responsible with alcohol. I don't condone underage drinking, but teens tend to manage to get their hands on the stuff anyway, so they might as well understand what they're getting into. Plus, your own source emphasizes that marijuana is more risky for adolescents.
I've never seen alcohol effect someone so immensely as to make them -- say -- not eat for a few days. I have seen marijuana do that. (A pair of cousins I know are now both beanpoles; one was already slender, but the other was obese, and he's skinny beyond recognition now. They stopped doing anything but sit around all day and all night and smoke weed.) Effects like those are ones that don't show up in clinical tests, but they are certainly negative.
I know a small handful of people with a caffeine addiction, but its effect on their lives are rather minimal. They need a dose of caffeine now and again to avoid a headache (the strength of which seems to depend on the person). But in no case have I seen strange, nonsensical, or less-than-intelligent behavior because of either caffeine or a need for caffeine.

[Dardedar]

FREED MEDICAL MARIJUANA ACTIVIST VOICES NEW PRAISE FOR JAIL STAFF

Steve Kubby, Who Fled to Canada to Avoid a Four-Month Term, Is
Released After 40 Days and Apologizes for Negative Publicity.

SACRAMENTO -- Steve Kubby, a California medical marijuana pioneer who
was forced to return from Canada earlier this year and was thrown
into jail, earned his freedom Monday after serving a third of the
four-month sentence his doctor predicted might kill him.

Placer County jail officials said Kubby's release after 40 days came
because of his good behavior in custody and their need to reduce
crowding under a federal court order.

Kubby has spent the last six years vociferously fighting Placer
County authorities over his conviction for possession of a peyote
button and a psychedelic mushroom. But his early release underscored
a sudden shift in his once bitter attitude toward law enforcement
authorities.

In jail, Kubby lost 25 pounds, yet said he gained respect for his
jailers and the medical staff who tended to the rare -- and typically
terminal -- form of adrenal cancer he has been treating with
marijuana for three decades.

"I realized the taunting and skepticism about my condition that I
experienced when I was first jailed here in 1999 was not present with
any of the jail staff this time," said Kubby, a onetime Libertarian
gubernatorial candidate and early backer of California's watershed
1996 medical marijuana initiative. "I realized that these guys were
getting heat over me, and they didn't deserve it."

The first days of his incarceration were marked by loud criticism of
Placer County officials by medical marijuana activists who worried
that Kubby might die in jail without access to marijuana. His blood
pressure, normally 120 over 80, jumped to 170 over 120 and blood
appeared in his urine.

But soon after he arrived in the Placer County jail, Kubby started
using Marinol -- a legal, synthetic form of THC, marijuana's
psychoactive ingredient -- to thwart increases in his blood pressure
that doctors say could be lethal.

His condition stabilized, and Kubby wrote to his jailers and the
medical staff apologizing for negative publicity during the first
days of his incarceration. In the letter, Kubby said he had
"developed a profound respect for the professional and highly
dedicated staff and officers here."

The short note eventually found its way to Placer County Sheriff Ed
Bonner, who met with Kubby last week.

"He said it was an honor to meet me," Kubby said Monday after his
release. "I was floored. I got the feeling he was sincere, genuine,
and got it. He said he wanted to talk to prosecutors about burying
the hatchet."

More:

HERE

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

Too bad things that kids take such things (tobacco, alcohol, pot, caffeine, etc) to be a sign of maturity. If we could somehow convince them to not indulge until they've finished their growing... Unfortunately, while adult height may be attained by girls as early as 12 (that's when I hit my current height) and boys as early as 16, internally is a different story. The bones don't finish growth until about 23, the digestive and lymbic systems around 25 - and anything that damages the growing tissue DNA sets a marred pattern. Even if the usage of whatever damaged the tissue is stopped, the damage form is usually reproduced. That's why teen smoking is so bad. A person who starts smoking (whatever) as an adult just has to stop smoking for the body to repair/replace the damage. A person who starts smoking as a teen even after stopping, will carry at least some of that damage for life (it can get better, but never "best"). So, if you can convince them they are going to live that long, instead of recommending which toxin they should indulge in, might be best to see if you can also convince them to defer any or all of them until age 25. (Our country doesn't really have any "rites of passage" any more, so the "forbidden fruit" is just about the only measure they have of "grownupness" - more's the pity.)

[Dardedar]

DAR
I totally agree Barbara. This reminds me that I need to get around to putting up a page in our "local quack" section on a local quack who is regulary promoted on a local radio show by Frank Whalen. The fellow is Col. Joe. He denies smoking causes cancer and promotes his fool proof cancer cure. As he says at his website:

"Welcome to Colonel Joe's web site!
This story is about the discovery of the magic bullet "oxalic acid" and its effects on cancer, arthritis, Alzheimer's, vascular, and other major diseases."

http://www.coljoe.com/

When my mother contracted colon cancer a couple of years ago she fell for his profoundly absurd claptrap (I have read his little book). I finally got her to go in for surgery, so she is still alive. Quackery does have it's consequences.

Whalen's website is here:

http://www.franklyspeakingtheamx.com/home.html

D.

[Tamara]

I've never seen alcohol effect someone so immensely as to make them -- say -- not eat for a few days. I have seen marijuana do that

Okay Sav, you do great when you speak from your scientific background. There you are obviously on solid ground, but I think your perspective is skewed in regard to the above statement.

I used to work in a bar and I can assure you that alcholics can basically substitute alchohol for food for more than mere days. I've seen people at that bar close the place at 1am after many, many beers and no food, and then have witnessed them come back at 10:30am the following morning waiting for the bar to open at 11am to get more beer in their system. Another alchoholic I know eats very little because she wants to, "save her calories for booze".

Also, your cousins' lack of eating while stoned is far from the norm. Most people get the munchies and often eat more than normal. In fact, part of the reason that medicinal marijuana is of benefit to chemo patients is because it is known to stimulate the appetite (as well as reduce nausea).

I do have to say that I agree with you that is it assinine to "advise" anyone (but particularly young people) to use drugs, but I would have to include them all (alchohol, coffee, etc.). I wouldn't draw the line only at the illegal ones. But, since actions speak louder than words, I would appear only as a hypocrite to anyone I advised.

[Savonarola]

As my personal experience with alcoholics is admittedly nearly nonexistent, I'll have to give Tamara's points some serious weight.

The pair of cousins -- who, incidentally, are each other's cousins, not my cousins -- really let themselves spiral very, very quickly. Perhaps one didn't have such a great future in front of him, but the one I knew better had a sharp mind and a promising future before toking it away.

Let me re-emphasize that I also disagree with encouraging drug use; I tried to heavily qualify my statement above. Encourage a hobby, like a sport or puzzles, or internet discussion boards... I simply feel that, overall, responsible alcohol use is less dangerous than smoking marijuana.

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

Savonarola - Your quack is really doing harm - oxylic acid binds calcium, which is not only needed for bone and tooth growth/maintenance, but for the protective sheething on nerve tissue (I don't remember the technical name for it).

Also Tamara knows whereof she speaks and those cousins you knew were very atypical. The problem with talking about "responsible use" is that since marijuana is illegal, no use can be considered responsible - but from a medical standpoint, from all the information you and Hogeye have posted, plus my personal experiences (as a very unstoned observer of family and friends), I'd say responsible use of either one is about even (both do damage, but not necessarily to the same parts of the system) - as long as we stick to adults.

[Hogeye]

Are you kidding, Barbara? Alcohol is bad for the liver and physically addictive; cannabis is benign compared to that. My point 2 earlier may have to be modified. I had said that cannabis was about the same risk-level as coffee, but today's paper (Morning News Wed. Mar. 8 ) reports a study indicating that slow metabolizers of caffeine who drink two or more cups of coffee a day are at least 36% more likely to have a non-fatal heart attack than those who drank little or no coffee. So now I consider coffee as more dangerous than cannabis healthwise, at least for slow metabolizers, approx. half of all coffee-drinkers.

The problem with talking about "responsible use" is that since marijuana is illegal, no use can be considered responsible.

That's a strange contortion of the term "responsible use." Most would construe it to refer to health risk. Many, myself included, consider it quite responsible, if not a moral imperitive, to ignore unjust laws.


That's wonderful news about Kubby. Most of us thought he'd be killed like Peter McWilliams. Steve got lucky - he was imprisoned in Northern California in a pot-friendly locale. If he'd been imprisoned in, e.g. San Diego, he'd probably be dead by now. As it was, the local jailers were compassionate, and he 'only' lost 25 lbs. during his month-long incarceration.

This is a good illustration of how laws (and govts) lose popular legitimacy long before any official change in law. Traditionally, such loss of legitimacy is evidenced by jury nullification; however, in Northern California recently we have seen two cases of judicial nullification. Very unusual, since judges are usually the last to jettison decreed law and do the right thing.

The earlier case of judicial nullification was the charges against Ed Rosenthal, the City of Oakland's medicinal cannabis director. Though appointed by the city to grow for its medmar patients, he was busted by the feds. His jury trial was highly controversial, because the defense was not allowed to tell the jury about his official status - to the jury he was presented as a bigtime mafia drug-dealer. He was convicted, but when the press interviewed the jurors it was clear that, had they known he was the medical marijuana director employed by the City of Oakland, they would have aquitted (nullified). All 12 jurors were angry and disgusted that this vital information was withheld, and said so publicly. To make a long story short: the sentencing judge, to everyone's surprise, let Ed off with time served.

[Savonarola]

My quack? Darrel mentioned him. I'll be happy to help Dar take him down, too.

Here, coincidentally, is a page showing the calculations for the calcium issue. In minimal doses, it seems the oxalate will have little relative effect. However, if the dose increases the amount in the body by about 100 times, precipitation will occur. This could lead to blocked blood vessels, although the blockages would dissolve upon stoppage of oxalate supplement.
Strangely enough, if someone were taking an oxalic acid supplement that increased their oxalate levels by ten times, and was taking calcium supplements that increased their calcium leves by ten times, this would also cause precipitation. Those ratios are probably not too improbable, and people taking "coral calcium" supplements (a la Kevin Trudeau) and oxalic acid thinking it will save them from cancer might be right: they could die of a blood vessel problem first.

The myelin sheath greatly speeds up nerve signal transmission. I was unaware that oxalic acid had an effect on myelin. Presumably, higher concentrations are needed to have an effect, since oxalate is naturally present in the body and is a component of many foods in low concentrations.

[Dardedar]

...oxalate is naturally present in the body and is a component of many foods in low concentrations.

DAR
I think the guy recognizes it is toxic and has people treat themselves by eating a lot of bananas and walnuts if I remember right. He had my mom bathing in "oxygenated" water and other silly things.
The fact that he denies a connection between smoking and cancer does it for me. His book was RETARDED. It was only 50 pages or so but the last half of it was anecdotal "just so" stories and recipes.

D.

[Savonarola]

I just ran across an interesting story related to this topic. The story describes new liquid intake guidelines that allow large amounts of tea and coffee and low alcohol consumption on a daily basis.
Some dissenting opinions can be found on page 2.

I'm not totally sold on these all of these ideas, especially considering it was sponsored by Lipton folks, but it's an interesting article nonetheless.

[Dardedar]

especially considering it was sponsored by Lipton folks,...

DAR
After I stopped laughing about the Lipton connection, I realized, whoops, we mustn't consider the source.

Just kidding, I do think the source is quite relevant. I'll check it out.

D.

[Hogeye]

Instead of recommending which toxin they should indulge in, might be best to see if you can also convince them to defer any or all of them until age 25.

Right, just as you might be best to convince them not to have sex. But since it is natural for people to want to feel good, it behooves us to take a harm reduction approach - tell them about condoms and that, if they're going to do drugs, stick to cannabis.

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

Sorry Savonrola, I didn't mean to attribute Dar's quack to you. The increase in Ca causing precip was probably due to not increasing Mg with it. Those two minerals have to be kept in balance, or the excess of whichever precips out. Oxalate, like chlorine and other very toxic minerals/metals, is apparently beneficial in very low amounts. The human body seems to be very adamant about personal space - it throws out anything it can't immediately use (does the same if Na-K get out of balance).

Ca is part of myelin, you bind/precip Ca, that's the 1st place the body steals from to keep the blood level stable.

Quacks mostly do harm to people who could be helped by "real" medical treatment. There is a (one) good thing them - the new ideas generated - some quacks weren't quacks after all - just touting a treatment that hadn't gone through peer review yet (Sister Kenney's treatment for polio survivors back before it was a preventative for it). But this guy knows nothing about nutrition