Hydrogen Cars?

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Hydrogen Cars?

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DAR
It seems to me that there is an amazing hoax going on. Hydrogen fuel cell cars. Scientific American had an excellent article on this some time back but I can't find it online. The following article makes a similar case. Why on earth are the wasting time with these ridiculous hydrogen cars?

***
The case for nuke cars—it's called 'hydrogen.'

BY PATRICK BEDARD, October 2005

Funny thing about hydrogen cars: If we were all driving them now, the President's FreedomCAR initiative would be anteing up its $1.8 billion to invent the gasoline engine. Freeing us from hydrogen would be "the moral equivalent of war," to use the words of a long-past energy-crisis president. Gasoline would be the miracle fuel. It would save money by the Fort Knoxful. It would save energy by the Saudi Arabiaful.

To see why this is so, let's look at the numbers. And for once, we're talking about a miracle fuel without speculation. We can see exactly how the "gasoline economy" would work by looking back to a year that's already happened. In 2000, gasoline consumption averaged 8.47 million barrels per day. Gas contains 5.15 million British thermal units of energy per barrel. For big numbers like this, it's customary to think in "quads," or quadrillion BTUs. So the gasoline energy used by motor vehicles in the year 2000 worked out to 16 quads.

Now let's do the same driving in hydrogen cars. Hydrogen is the most plentiful element on earth, but there's no underground pool of it we can drill into. All of nature's hydrogen atoms come married to other atoms in earnestly stable relationships. It takes an industrial process to break apart those marriages to obtain pure hydrogen in a form that can be used by fuel cells.

Think of fuel cells as black boxes into which we put hydrogen on one side and oxygen from the atmosphere on the other. Out the bottom come water and a small electrical current. There is no such thing as free power, of course. If you get power out when you let hydrogen and oxygen get married in a fuel cell, then you must put power into the process of divorcing them.

The industrial divorcing of water molecules is known as electrolysis. This is fuel by immaculate conception, according to most greenies. To make the chemistry work, you must put in 39.4 kilowatt-hours of energy for each kilogram of hydrogen you expect to liberate. Unfortunately, the electrolysis process is only 70 percent efficient. So the total energy input must be 56.3 kilowatt-hours per kilogram of hydrogen.

This energy to be added must come from somewhere. The U.S. has an excellent supply of coal. Coal-fired powerplants are about 40 percent efficient, so 140.8 kilowatt-hours of coal energy are required to net the 56.3 kilowatt-hours of electricity to produce our one kilogram of hydrogen.

My source for these calculations is Donald Anthrop, Ph.D., professor emeritus of environmental studies at San Jose State University, in a Cato Institute report.

In a perfect world, the fuel cell in our car would produce 33.4 kilowatt-hours of useful energy from each kilogram of hydrogen, and 6.0 kilowatt-hours would go to water vapor, giving you back your net investment of 39.4 kilowatt-hours at the electrolysis plant. But the world is not perfect, and the best fuel cells are only about 70 percent efficient. So the energy yield is 23.3 kilowatt-hours.

One more loss must be reckoned with. Hydrogen is a gas. It's lighter than air. Remember, it was the stuffing for the airship Hindenburg. Hydrogen gas (at atmospheric pressure and room temperature) containing the same energy as a gallon of gasoline takes up 3107 gallons of space. To make a useful auto fuel, Anthrop says it must be compressed to at least 4000 psi (Honda uses 5000 psi in the FCX; GM is trying for 10,000). The energy required to do that further trims the yield to 17.4 kilowatt-hours. Pressures higher than 4000 would increase miles available from each fill but cost more energy for compression. Liquefying hydrogen, which BMW advocates, costs upward of 40 percent of hydrogen's energy content.

So far, the numbers say this: Starting with 140.8 kilowatt-hours of energy from coal gives you 17.4 kilowatt-hours of electrical power from the fuel cell to propel the car, or an energy efficiency of 12 percent.

Anthrop goes on to estimate the fuel-cell power needed for the 2.526 billion miles driven in the U.S. in 2000. According to Southern California Edison, the electricity needed per mile for passenger cars is at least 0.46 kilowatt-hour. For the whole U.S. vehicle fleet, that works out to 1.16 trillion kilowatt-hours. You'll need 32 quads of coal, which is twice the energy actually consumed in 2000 with gasoline.

As for global-warming implications, the use of hydrogen from coal instead of gasoline would produce a 2.7-fold increase in carbon emissions.

Of course, all of today's electricity doesn't come from coal. But even with the current mix of sources, including natural gas, nuclear, hydro, solar, and wind, that much hydrogen would raise our carbon output to about twice the 2000 level.

The enviros like to talk about renewable energy. Anthrop has done those calculations as well. Hydro power is our largest source of green electricity, but it would take 15 times the current amount for an all-hydrogen vehicle fleet. Given the pressure to remove existing dams, it's unlikely we'll have any additional hydroelectricity.

Photovoltaic cells? Anthrop says it takes about eight years of cell output to make back the electrical power originally consumed in manufacturing the cell.

Wind power? It defies calculation, in part because wind blows only intermittently.

Virtually all the hydrogen produced today, about 50 million tons worldwide, comes from natural gas. The process, called "steam reforming," is only about 30 percent efficient, much less, he says, "than if the natural gas were simply burned" in the generating plant.

Producing enough hydrogen to replace gasoline by reforming natural gas would increase our gas consumption by 66 percent over 2002's usage. And don't forget the carbon emissions.

That leaves the unspeakable—nukes.

Presumably, BMW knows all of this, yet it has been thumping the tub for hydrogen since the 1970s. Along with hundreds of other invitees, I attended BMW's hydrogen hootenanny at Paramount Pictures in 2001. Mostly, it amounted to a day of corporate preening before California's greenies. Still, BMW is famously brave in confronting technology. Does it have a plan? I summed up the science of this column, in writing, and passed it up through BMW's official channels, along with the obvious question: Where will the necessary quads and quads of energy come from for hydrogen cars? That was nearly two years ago. BMW has not answered.

No answer, of course, is the anwer.
***

Car and Driver

Another good, short article can be found here.
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Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

Funny - I had a (biology) professor who said the best use of fusion would be to electrolyze water for H2. However, the author left out solar and denigrated wind because of intermittance - totally blowing off the fact that, if you are hooked to the grid, then it doesn't matter that wind doesn't always blow in one place because it IS always blowing someplace. Not that I'm an H2 supporter, I'm not. The appeal is the zero-pollution result, but like every other "too good to be true" (perpetual motion machines, etc.), there are many drawbacks - the largest of which is the lack of potable water - we're running out of water for agricultural and industrial uses right now. Consider the demand if we were running cars on it!

H2 isn't the answer (although fuel cells have some applications, running automobiles isn't optimal) - no one single thing is. A combination of EVs, flex-fuels, ethanol (cellulose NOT corn), bio-diesel, higher efficiency of both internal combusion and hybrids, increased mass transit - and other stuff as yet unthought of will be needed to take the place of that "black gold" that should be called "black blood".
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Post by Dardedar »

Barbara Fitzpatrick wrote:...we're running out of water for agricultural and industrial uses right now. Consider the demand if we were running cars on it!
DAR
But aren't we going to have lots of extra water as the glaciers melt and the oceans rise? Why can't seawater be used? (then we will have lots of extra salt too for my popcorn too). The amount of water a H2 vehicle exhausts I think is small, so it may not even be a terribly large amount of water we are talking about. I don't know.
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Post by Savonarola »

A few comments:

Yes, electrolysis of water is rather inefficient. However, this is not the only way to gather hydrogen. Some industrial processes produce hydrogen gas as a byproduct (e.g., if I remember correctly, manufacturing aluminum nitrate).

Without trying to underemphasize the differences, I still find it a bit humorous that people object so strongly to hauling around a bunch of hydrogen gas because it's "dangerous" while having no problem hauling around perhaps a couple hundred pounds of explosively flammable liquid.

There are other ways to store hydrogen for use. One elegant example is using carbon nanotubes, which soak up hydrogen gas through a process called adsorption (no, not absorption). Another is to have it reversibly chemically bonded, like in sodium borohydride.

(No, I'm not a chemistry geek at all.)

While I have no doubt that using hydrogen is not feasible at this time, I'm not quite ready to declare it a lost cause. We'll see what future discoveries and inventions reveal.

Barbara Fitzpatrick wrote:Funny - I had a (biology) professor who said the best use of fusion would be to electrolyze water for H2.
Notice he wasn't a chemistry professor. (Or even an engineer.) If his/her assertion were true, why aren't fission reactors being used to electrolyze water?
Barbara Fitzpatrick wrote:... there are many drawbacks - the largest of which is the lack of potable water - we're running out of water for agricultural and industrial uses right now. Consider the demand if we were running cars on it!
Darrel wrote:Why can't seawater be used?
Two points:
First, the net change will be zero. Every molecule of H2 started out in a molecule of H2O and will end up in a molecule of H2O once it has gone through the fuel cell.*
Second, seawater probably could be used; that is, we aren't restricted to using potable water. It may be a little less efficient than cleaner water, but pure water cannot be electrolyzed anyway; we have to add salt in order for it to carry an electrical current for electrolysis.
Darrel wrote:The amount of water a H2 vehicle exhausts I think is small, so it may not even be a terribly large amount of water we are talking about. I don't know.
Again, remember that the net change in H2O will be zero. We could produce 1kg of hydrogen gas from 9kg of water, and that 1kg of hydrogen gas would end up producing 9kg of water (vapor) through the tailpipe.*

*: This assumes that we ignore contributions of H2 that did not come from water. Harnessing other processes to gather H2 would end up increasing the amount of water produced (unless its source also was ultimately H2O).
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Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

Dr. Dale was talking about fusion - which has a much less dangerous fuel and a much shorter half-life for the radioactive "slag" than fission - during a time when pop science kept crossing the lines of science fantasy in proposed usage of it. Fusion-powered flying cars ala George Jetson sort of thing. Fission is to expensive, economically and environmentally, and is only feasible when strongly subsidized. Using either one is ultimately using electricity for electrolysis.

As to potable water, most of that isn't "pure" water and has no problem whatsoever being electrolyzed. Seawater has so much salt and so many other things dissolved in it that it's not optimal (or even a good idea) since some of the things dissolved in seawater would be happy to explode on contact with hydrogen or pure oxygen (the other result of electrolyzing water). Even if it didn't, the amount of salt in seawater would make the process less than stable (at least it was in the labs I taught).
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Post by Savonarola »

Barbara Fitzpatrick wrote:Using either one is ultimately using electricity for electrolysis.
You seem to have missed my point: If it were more efficient to electrolyze water using fusion power, it would be more efficient to electrolyze water using fission power. It's neither, as demonstrated by the lack of electrolyzing nuclear fusion power stations. If you're going to push fusion as an energy source, use standard steam turbine generators.
The irony here is that the biggest energy output would be from fusing hydrogen gas into heavier elements... If we had the hydrogen gas to do this, why the hell would we be using the energy produced to electrolyze water to form hydrogen gas?
Barbara Fitzpatrick wrote:Seawater has so much salt and so many other things dissolved in it that it's not optimal (or even a good idea) since some of the things dissolved in seawater would be happy to explode on contact with hydrogen or pure oxygen (the other result of electrolyzing water).
I'm intrigued. Please name some of those dissolved components.
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Post by Dardedar »

I had a (biology) professor who said the best use of fusion would be to electrolyze water for H2.
DAR
Seems to me the fellow is saying that IF we had the vast amounts of electricity that could be provided by fusion, perhaps more than we needed in certain areas, it would be smart to convert it into what everyone says is an excellent energy carrier, hydrogen. Common sense.
The reason it doesn't make sense right now is, we don't have vast amounts of electricity we don't need and when we do the process of electrolysis now, the electricity we burn in the process is worth more than the hydrogen get. That's dumb.

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Post by Savonarola »

Darrel wrote:Seems to me the fellow is saying that IF we had the vast amounts of electricity that could be provided by fusion, perhaps more than we needed in certain areas, it would be smart to convert it into what everyone says is an excellent energy carrier, hydrogen.
Again, there is nothing special about fusion in this regard. We could burn x% more coal and convert it to hydrogen, or we could crank up our fission reactors to y% higher production and convert the electricity to hydrogen. It's just plain energy, and it doesn't come with identification tags stating how it was produced.
IF we had vast amounts of extra energy available from fusion, we'd just dial down our fusion reactors. We could crank them up to produce hydrogen if there were demand for such, but we could do the same with modern methods as well.
Darrel wrote:The reason it doesn't make sense right now is, we don't have vast amounts of electricity we don't need and when we do the process of electrolysis now, the electricity we burn in the process is worth more than the hydrogen get. That's dumb.
Well, the second law of thermodynamics guarantees that we won't get as much energy out of something as we put into it. The issue is how much inefficiency there is, and electrolysis isn't very efficient.
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Savonarola wrote: IF we had vast amounts of extra energy available from fusion, we'd just dial down our fusion reactors.
DAR
I think an implication in the professors statement, that goes along with most statements I have seen regarding fusion power, is the dream that fusion power would produce so much power so efficiently that the main question would be "what the hell do we do with all of the super cheap electricity!?" Then, in this context, hydrogen would be a very good carrier/storage device. None of our current methods of electricity have us asking that question. The US imports a lot of electricity from Canada and most of these sources are polluting.
We could crank them up to produce hydrogen if there were demand for such, but we could do the same with modern methods as well.
DAR
But the dream of nuclear "too cheap to meter" didn't come true. So that leaves us with almost all of our methods either cranking out lots of C02 (and strip mining), creating nuke waste, or at a minimum making electricity that ends up costing about 10 cents+- per kilowatt at the consumer end. Because of the inefficiency of making Hydrogen with electricity it doesn't make sense to do this now. IF the fusion dream gave us limitless electricity (and specifically, in certain locations perhaps because of immense cost in making these plants), H2 would be an excellent way to convert a lot of that electricty into a portable product that burns so clean the only "exhaust" is pure water.

D.
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Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

Sav - Darrel is correct in what Dr. Dale was expressing. As I said, he was responding to a fusion-as-the-next-silver-bullet attitude (this was 1985) - deuterium (heavy hydrogen) in seawater was supposed to be the "fuel" - not nasty, radioactive, hard to mine, easy to make bombs from, uranium - and it was supposed to give us that "too cheap to meter" electricity America has supposedly been searching for over the last century, as well as power everything from your toaster to your vehicle - the complete "all-electric" lifestyle. (Actually, the utilities want an energy situation that maximizes their profit and fusion - or fission - won't do it, especially if government subsidies are removed. They've been fighting for what they have because change means capital expenditures they don't want to make. Once they've been forced to make the changes, they'll fight for that status quo against any changes the future requires.) Most of it was science fantasy, as Dr. Dale was pointing out - maybe in the very distant future fusion reactors could be made small enough to run a car - fuel cells aren't really that small yet - but that is in the realms of fantasy now, and even more so in 1985, when we were still at the "tokamak" stage of fusion research.
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Post by ChristianLoeschel »

Getting hydrogen isnt the problem, besides the fact that potable water is a very small percentage of the worlds water supply, there are other ways, such as algae bioreactors. Just about EVERY organic chemical carries significant amounts of hydrogen. Think about it: what do you get when you burn any organic compound? CO2 and H2O. Also, as Savonarola pointed out, we take H2 from H2O and turn it back to H2O, which then condenses out in the form of rain.
Storage is where it gets tricky. A hydride, as Savonarola mentioned, could be useful, but chemically tricky. NaBH4 (Sodium Borohydride) is a severe irritant, not to mention the hydrogen is bound in its anionic form, which has radically different chemical properties from H2. H2 is chemically rather inert, whereas a hydride is far from it. It is a very strong base, and also forms very tight bonds with just about all transition metals. There are some bonding modes for hydrogen with transition metals that could very well be useful. I will have to look up the reference, but I believe it is a tungsten carbonyl compound that can bind H2 side-on in an eta-2 type fashion. The question becomes then if that can be used as a solid support and H2 be given off readily in a useful form and concentration.
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Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

At this point, I don't think we have the time to wait for a viable H2 source and vehicle - don't stop the research, but leave it on the back burner (where it is, contrary to W & the Gropinator's spin). Right now we need to make the push for getting out existing technologies, and that's waste-produced ethanol (check out the BRI Energy website, if you haven't already) and biodiesel. We already have flex fuel cars on the roads, but they being run on just gasoline for lack of E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) fueling stations. Diesel engines run better on biodiesel than petrodiesel already. The infrastructure changes needed are E85 pumps added to all the fueling stations. That's it. On the supply end, biodiesel can be and is being made from waste oils (including meat renderings) and only needs to be blended with the existing petrodiesel, starting with a 5% blend (B5) as the processing facilities gear up and phasing up. Ethanol is currently, and inefficiently, being made from corn. BRI Energy is in the process of building its first commercial plants. Their process can produce ethanol (and electricity from processing heat) from any carbon-based substance, including agricultural, industrial, and municipal wastes - solving the landfill problem at the same time as it produces energy. (It can also utilize coal in non-polluting process - and mine old landfills, for that matter.) Bri Energy isn't the only one out there making efficient ethanol, just the one I know most about.

We have the technology, just like we had the technology for synthetic rubber in 1937. We need to phase in that new technology before we need it and can't produce it, as unfortunately American discovered in 1942 when our sources of natural rubber were cut off and we didn't have the plants in place to produce the synthetic. Rubber was our most severe shortage during WWII and the real cause of the gasoline rationing and the 35 mph speed limit, and yet we'd had the technology - though not the capability in built and producing plants - for almost 10 years before we got into the war. H2 can wait. Ethanol can't.
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