Split from Aug FT meeting: Yet another Global Warming thread

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Split from Aug FT meeting: Yet another Global Warming thread

Post by Dardedar »

DAR
Excellent idea. We would need to show this at a meeting you can attend. You will want to be there to defend it. I don't know anyone else that will. Deniers are getting very rare.
We could either show it as part of the August meeting, or show it in conjunction with an alarmist flick.
DAR
I'll see if I can find any scientists that have responded to the claims of this group.

People who would like to investigate the background of this "Friends of Science" group might start here:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... of_Science

Excerpt:

***
FOS's Reassuring Video

It released a video, directed by Mike Visser, called 'Climate Catastrophe Cancelled' [2] (http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=3) in conjunction with Professor Barry Cooper, of the Politics Department of the University of Calgary. The PR contact is listed as Sheila Roy of APCO Worldwide Canada, who have been involved in climate change denial since at latest 2002 [3]

(http://www.climatesearch.com/newsDetail.cfm?nwsId=54) [4] (http://climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=17546).

In email correspondence in November 2005 Albert Jacobs from FoS indicated that Roy was hired on a one off basis though APCO are occasionally hired to "do specific jobs for us under incidental contracts, as the need arises."

The video features among others:

* Tim Ball;
* Sallie L. Baliunas credited as from Tech Central Station;
* Prof. Tim Patterson; and
* Ross McKitrick

***
DAR
The APCO connection above is of interest:

***
History

In an internal 1993 budget review document for the Philip Morris Group of companies, APCO Associates was penciled in for $500,000 as a "corporate affairs consultant." On behalf of the tobacco industry and other corporate clients, it has created a number of industry front groups, including The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition and the American Tort Reform Association.

The Accompanying description was "APCO is a tort consultant to PMMC, a consultant on animal rights issues to PMMC (G. Knox) and an ETS consultant to PM USA (E Merlo). Neal Cohen is the principal account executive on the PM Tort Project and has been in this position since at least 1988. Our tort contract with APCO currently has them assisting the PM family, national and state tort coalitions and other tort reform advocates with political, communications and grassroots strategies and related programs”.[4]
***

O' Canada, my home and naive land....

I did find this glowing review of them, but dang, written by the "Premium Pulse" DOB ("Daily Oil Bulletin"). Actually they give a good overview of the lines of evidence brought up in this little movie. All material we have seen refuted over and over and over again here...

a) Overal world temperatures have cooled since 1998 (really?)

b) medieval warming... "grapes were cultivated in England" blah blah.... just happened across a really thorough roast of that one here:

Medieval warmth and English wine

c) beat the hockey stick some more brought to you by "Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick" (yawn)

d) Sunspot theory: "relationship between sunspot activity and periods of global warming.... temperature is almost certainly related to total solar radiance," Jacobs charges."

e) computer models don't work

That's it.

Then I found this, which REALLY unravels the whole ball of wax on the "Friends of Science" (isn't it amazing the names these guys come up with "Clear Skies" etc.):

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/26/11550/9864

If you made it that far, you will want to see part three too:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/30/115032/585

Incredible really!

Of course Freethinkers will want to carefully weigh and examine the evidence put forward by these guys and not let the fact that they are all wrapped up in the following web (see below) let them color the potential merit of the claims put forward by the "Friends of Science":

Image

D.

Edited by Savonarola 20060812 1728: Added link to source thread
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Post by Hogeye »

I would hope, Darrel, that when we show the documentary you critique the scientific points rather than just poison the well (like most of the last message.)

The existence of the MWP (Medieval Warm Period) is supported by ice bores and sediment studies, in addition to historical events such as the settlement of Greenland, crop records of Europe, and so on. The grapes in England thing is just one tidbit in a mountain of evidence. The writer, Gavin, of the English Wine article misses the point. He writes, "For the sake of argument, let's accept that medieval times were as warm in England as they are today, and even that global temperatures were similar (that's a much bigger leap, but no mind). What would that imply for our attribution of current climate changes to human causes? ... Nothing. Nowt. Zero. Zip." But the point is that late-20th century warming is no bigga deal, that warmer periods have happened before without the sky falling. If the MWP was as warm or warmer than today, then there's no need to spend trillions to prevent industrialization and lower human living standards.

I particularly like the part of "Climate Catastrophe Cancelled" that gave the background regarding the classic climate theory (with MWP and LIA) vs the Mann "hockey stick" theory. It's an excellent example of neo-Lyshenkoism - how political intrigue undermines objectivity in science. Most people don't know that the IPCC executive summary is pure politics and has nothing to do with science.

The final message is good, too - that we should adapt and reduce the harms of climate change rather than try to change the climate.
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Post by Dardedar »

Hogeye wrote:I would hope, Darrel, that when we show the documentary you critique the scientific points....
DAR
Already done, over and over. The well from which you draw your information has a major oil slick on it and it's quite appropriate to point this out, while emphasising of course that the science is just plain wrong. But it is not by accident that this same small cadre keeps getting different answers from all main stream science. It's quite on purpose.
The existence of the MWP (Medieval Warm Period) is supported by ice bores and sediment studies, in addition to historical events such as the settlement of Greenland,...
DAR
Anecdotes. But not relevant even if true. No one (well I know one fellow) asserts that a MWP was caused by humans. Scientists agree that to a large degree we are the cause of it today. Big difference.
The grapes in England thing is just one tidbit in a mountain of evidence.
DAR
The grapes of England is an urban legend. If you were a little more forthright you would admit this after is shown to you. When you pass along junk, don't excuse it, discard it gladly and be thankful.
The writer, Gavin, of the English Wine article misses the point. He writes, "For the sake of argument, let's accept that medieval times were as warm in England as they are today, and even that global temperatures were similar (that's a much bigger leap, but no mind). What would that imply for our attribution of current climate changes to human causes? ... Nothing. Nowt. Zero. Zip."


DAR
You miss his point entirely. Read it again. He is making the point that I made once again above. He asks: "What would that (MWP) imply for our attribution of current climate changes to human causes? Nothing" Why? Because, even if it did happen to the degree your side asserts, no one asserts a human caused MWP. Apples to oranges.
But the point is that late-20th century warming is no bigga deal, that warmer periods have happened before without the sky falling.
DAR
Maybe you have a different idea of "the sky falling" then most everyone else. Maybe you don't live near the ocean like 100's of millions of others.
If the MWP was as warm or warmer than today, then there's no need to spend trillions to prevent industrialization and lower human living standards.
DAR
Of course that is a howling non sequiter.

I'll see if I can find a specific line by line roast of this documentary. I am sure there is one coming if it hasn't already been done already. There doesn't seem to be anything new here at all.
Most people don't know that the IPCC executive summary is pure politics and has nothing to do with science.
DAR
Is it opposite day again?!
The final message is good, too - that we should adapt and reduce the harms of climate change rather than try to change the climate.
DAR
We are already changing the climate. Considering the profound risks, maybe we should stop.

Have you seen Gore's movie yet? If not why not? It's quite good.

D.

Edited by Savonarola, 20060811 2121: closed quote tag
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Post by Hogeye »

Yes, I've seen Gore's movie. It's mainly alarmist hysteria, with the usual half-truths and lies. He doesn't compare late 20th century with the MWP. In his 500,000 year temp and CO2 graphs, he omits the fact that temperature increased sooner, and CO2 change lagged up to 800 years - totally blowing away his implication that CO2 caused temp changes. His climbing the ladder trick was a perfect example of "lying" with statistics. I my informal exit survey, people who saw "Inconvenient Truth" grossly overestimated the proportion of CO2 in the atmosphere. "Climate Catastrophe Cancelled" is a much better and more scientifically accurate flick, even though it is older and contains some outdated info.

Re the MWP: Ice bores and sediment studies are not "anecdotes."

Apparently the reason you and I "miss the point" is that we are looking at different points. Gavin's and your point is that late 20th century climate change is caused by humans. Actually, I agree with that point, but find it to be rather inconsequential. (Although I would attribute most of the human input to be more related to land use rather than greenhouse gasses.)

The point that you and Gavin miss is that, if it is no warmer than the MWP, then the predictions of disaster are ridiculous. If you claim the ocean will rise 20 feet in the next century due to warming, then tell us why it didn't do so during the MWP. The fact is that none of the 'sky is falling' disasters predicted by Gore and the alarmists happened during the MWP - which is probably why they want to wish it away, or like Mann, claim it never happened.
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Post by Dardedar »

Hogeye wrote:If you claim the ocean will rise 20 feet in the next century due to warming, then tell us why it didn't do so during the MWP.
DAR
Because the MWP, as you believe in it, didn't happen. If your boys had good evidence why would they even spend time talking about bogus grape farms in England?
The fact is that none of the 'sky is falling' disasters predicted by Gore and the alarmists happened during the MWP - which is probably why they want to wish it away, or like Mann, claim it never happened.
DAR
Mann's position is the standard mainstream scientific position and held by all except for rightwing extremists idealogically or economically committed to warming denial. Rightwing crackpots and oil boys on payola, that's all you have. Wonder why? See it all explained below.
And Mann's hockey stick has been exonerated. He's won that debate. Observe:

***
NRC Exonerates "Hockey Stick" Graph, Ending "Mann-Hunt" by Two Canadian Skeptics
Fri, 06/23/2006 - 08:35.

Mann's "hockey stick" graph was the subject of an attack by Stephen McIntyre, a statistician and part-time consultant in Toronto to minerals industries, and Ross McKitrick, an economist at the University of Guelph in Ontario. The attack was the subject of a front page story in the Wall Street Journal.

Science Panel Backs Study on Warming Climate

The New York Times, June 22, 2006
WASHINGTON, June 22 — A controversial paper asserting that recent warming in the Northern Hemisphere was probably unrivaled for 1,000 years was endorsed today, with a few reservations, by a panel convened by the nation's pre-eminent scientific body."

LINK

Image

D.
--------------------------
Greenland's Melting Ice Sheet May Speed Rise in Sea Level

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/081206G.shtml

Two new scientific studies measuring Greenland's rapidly melting ice sheet and the pace of Antarctic snowfall suggest that the sea level may be rising faster than researchers previously assumed. The Greenland ice sheet, Earth's second-largest reservoir of fresh water, is melting at three times the rate at which it had been melting over the previous five years.
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DAR
Much more background on Tim Ball, Friends of Science and this bunch. From the Toronto Globe and Mail. Nice and fresh.

***
Mr. Cool & friends

Former geography professor Tim Ball is Canada's most vocal climate change skeptic. Supporting him is a coalition of oil patch retirees, skeptical scientists, anonymous donors and public relations experts intent on quashing the Kyoto Accord.

(Globe and Mail, Aug. 12, '06)

On a cloudless morning in June, Tim Ball has joined a hundred-odd members of the Comox Valley Probus Club for a buffet of coffee, cinnamon buns and pink lemonade. As this group of retired business people wraps up its monthly meeting, Prof. Ball surveys the crowd and runs a hand over his suntanned dome.



He does not appear the least bit fatigued, which is remarkable considering that the 67-year-old former University of Winnipeg professor has spent much of the last couple of months crisscrossing the country, addressing community forums, business groups, newspaper editorial boards and politicians about climate change. He has been nearly as dogged as Al Gore, whose own globe-hopping slide show is the subject of the documentary film, An Inconvenient Truth.



But that is where the similarity between them ends.



Prof. Ball clutches a cordless microphone and smiles out at the sea of white hair. He teases the audience about their age, throws in a hockey joke, then tells the crowd that, unlike Mr. Gore, he is a climatologist, and he is not at all panicking about climate change.



"The temperature hasn't gone up," he asserts. "But the mood of the world has changed: It has heated up to this belief in global warming."



Over the next hour, Prof. Ball stitches together folksy anecdotes with a succession of charts, graphs and pictures to form a collage of doubt about the emerging consensus on climate change. There's a map of Canada covered in ice 20,000 years ago - proof, he says, that wild swings in the earth's temperature are perfectly normal. There's a graph suggesting that atmospheric carbon dioxide is at its lowest level in 600 million years.



Gaining momentum, he declares that Environment Canada and other agencies fabricated the climate-change scare in order to attract funding for propaganda and expensive attempts to model climate change using supercomputers.



"Environment Canada can't even predict the weather!" he bellows. "How can you tell me that they have any idea what its going to be like 100 years from now if they can't tell me what the weather is going to be like in four months, or even next week?"



As proof of the climate-change conspiracy, Prof. Ball shows the crowd a graph with a kinked line jigging across it. This is the famous "hockey-stick graph" published by Pennsylvania State University scientist Michael Mann and his team in 1999, which shows temperatures to be fairly stable for hundreds of years, then rising rapidly in the last few decades. Al Gore, among many others, uses it to illustrate the case for global warming.



Prof. Ball claims that the Mann team "cooked the books," and that its blunders were confirmed just a few days previously, in a report to the Congress by the U.S. Academies of Science. "He threw out all the data that didn't fit his hypothesis," Prof. Ball says, without offering evidence to back the charge. His outrage is now as searing as the baking-hot sun outside. "I personally think [Mann] should be in jail!"



In fact, Prof. Ball says, the real danger for Canada is not warming, but cooling: "It's like Y2K," he concludes. "We all just need to calm down."



He is met with raucous applause. It is as though a weight has been lifted from the audience's collective shoulders: What a relief to learn that this global crisis, one they keep hearing will bring extreme weather, submerge small island nations and devastate economies, may be nothing to worry about.



Few in the audience have any idea that Prof. Ball hasn't published on climate science in any peer-reviewed scientific journal in more than 14 years. They do not know that he has been paid to speak to federal MPs by a public-relations company that works for energy firms. Nor are they aware that his travel expenses are covered by a group supported by donors from the Alberta oil patch.



Most Canadians recognize, of course, that fossil-fuel businesses could lose large sums if the federal government moves to curtail greenhouse-gas emissions.



But they may not realize that by quietly backing the movement behind maverick figures such as Prof. Ball, the fuel industry - with its close ties to the party that brought Prime Minister Stephen Harper to power - is succeeding, bit by bit, in influencing both public opinion and Canadian policy on global warming, including the international Kyoto Accord.



An Ipsos Reid poll released in May found that, despite increasing scientific evidence to the contrary, four of every 10 Canadians surveyed still agreed with Prof. Ball's assertion that climate change is due to natural warming and cooling patterns.



"He is a very entertaining performer, very slick," says Neil Brown, the Conservative MLA for Calgary-Nose Hill, who attended a presentation Prof. Ball made to a caucus of provincial Tories in Calgary. "When someone shows up and tells me that the earth is actually cooling, then it gets my attention."



[-bugs-]



The scientific mainstream is unequivocal that global warming is real, happening at a rate unprecedented in human history, and most likely caused mainly by human greenhouse-gas emissions. Last year, the national academies of science of all the G8 nations, representing most scientists in the developed world, sent a joint message to their leaders urging prompt action.



In February, the UN and the World Meteorological Society's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which brings together more than 2,000 scientists to review tens of thousands of peer-reviewed papers on climate science, will release its fourth report. The authors say it will contain a warning that human-caused global warming could drive the Earth's temperature to levels far higher than previously predicted.



Andrew Weaver is the Canada Research Chair in Climate Modelling and Analysis at the University of Victoria, and a lead author of a chapter in the upcoming IPCC report. He gives a frustrated sigh at the mention of Tim Ball's cross-country tour.



"He says stuff that is just plain wrong. But when you are talking to crowds, when you are talking on TV, there is no challenge, there is no peer review," Prof. Weaver says.



Like other senior scientists, he charges that Prof. Ball's arguments are a grab bag of irrelevancies and falsehoods: "Ball says that our climate models do not [account for the warming effects of] water vapour. That's absurd. They all do."



Likewise, he says, Prof. Ball's claims that climate change could be explained by variations in the earth's orbit or by sunspots are discounted by widely available data.



Many of Prof. Ball's other arguments don't stand up to scrutiny. Consider the hockey-stick graph: He was right that the U.S. Academies of Science had delivered a review of climate science to Congress. But their report concluded that temperatures in the last 25 years really have been the highest in 400 years. Moreover, the panelists assured reporters that there was no evidence at all that the Mann team cherry-picked its data - completely contradicting what Prof. Ball told his audience in Comox.



"What Ball is doing is not about science," says Prof. Weaver. "It is about politics."



Leaders throughout Europe have accepted the IPCC position on climate change, and have been looking for ways to take collective action, primarily via the Kyoto Accord. Yet North Americans have lagged behind, hamstrung by a lingering debate in the media and among politicians about climate science.



How did this doubt take hold?



In a now-infamous 2003 memo, U.S. pollster and consultant Frank Luntz advised Republican politicians to cultivate uncertainty when talking about climate change: "Voters believe that there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community. Should the public come to believe the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly. Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate ," wrote Mr. Luntz (the italics are his own).



Nurturing doubt about climate-change science has become big business for public-relations companies and lobbyists south of the border. Between 2000 and 2003, ExxonMobil alone gave more than $8.6-million (U.S.) to think tanks, consumer groups and policy organizations engaged in anti-Kyoto messaging, according to the company's own records. Those groups promote the minority of scientists who still dispute the IPCC consensus on climate change, creating the appearance of widespread scientific disagreement.



Mr. Luntz met with Prime Minister Harper in May, but the Conservatives already had adopted his advice. Mr. Harper was emphasizing that climate change was but an "emerging science" long before he cancelled an array of programs designed to promote energy conservation.



Environment Minister and Edmonton-Spruce Grove MP Rona Ambrose, for example, has talked up the flaws of the Kyoto Accord, while steadfastly rejecting its modest emission-reduction targets. And on June 30, the government simply disappeared its main climate-change web site

( www.climatechange.gc.ca ), which once contained educational materials for teachers.



However, given the resonance of the climate-change issue with most Canadians, political leaders can't afford to denounce mainstream science too loudly. That task has instead been taken up by activists in the Conservative Party's Alberta heartland.



Over the past four years, a coalition of oil-patch geologists, Tory insiders, anonymous donors and oil-industry PR professionals has come together to manufacture public consent for Canada's withdrawal from Kyoto. Through a Calgary-based society ironically dubbed the Friends of Science, they have leveraged Tim Ball and a handful of other "climate skeptics" onto podiums and editorial pages across the country.



While the federal government stalls, the skeptics preach doubt, softening the public for a diluted "Made-in-Canada" climate policy. Prof. Ball admits that when he meets with business leaders and politicians,he advises them to weigh the high price of action against more cost-effective "lip service."



These efforts may help delay emissions caps for years. Not bad for a campaign that began with a bitch session among a clutch of oil-patch retirees.

***
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Post by Dardedar »

DAR
Continued from above. This is such an obvious scam. Observe how these clowns are funded:

***

"We started out without a nickel, mostly retired geologists, geophysicists and retired businessmen, all old fogeys," says Albert Jacobs, a geologist and retired oil-explorations manager, proudly remembering the first meeting of the Friends of Science Society in the curling lounge of Calgary's Glencoe Club back in 2002.

"We all had experience dealing with Kyoto, and we decided that a lot of it was based on science that was biased, incomplete and politicized."

Mr. Jacobs says he suspects that the Kyoto Accord was devised as a tool by United Nations bureaucrats to push the world towards a world socialist government under the UN. "You know," he says, "to this day, there is no scientific proof that human-caused C02 is the main cause of global warming."

He managed to insert that last message into the Canadian Society of Petroleum Geologists' official statement on climate change in 2003. But he and his fellow Friends of Science decided that if they wanted to have broad influence on climate policy, they needed money in order to stage events, create publicity materials, commercials and a web site, and reach the media and politicians. Tim Ball spoke at the group's first fundraiser.

But the event didn't raise enough for the group's ambitious plans. There was plenty of money for the anti-Kyoto cause in the oil patch, but the Friends dared not take money directly from energy companies. The optics, Mr. Jacobs admits, would have been terrible.

This conundrum, he says, was solved by University of Calgary political scientist Barry Cooper, a well-known associate of Stephen Harper.

As his is privilege as a faculty member, Prof. Cooper set up a fund at the university dubbed the Science Education Fund. Donors were encouraged to give to the fund through the Calgary Foundation, which administers charitable giving in the Calgary area, and has a policy of guarding donors' identities. The Science Education Fund in turn provides money for the Friends of Science, as well as Tim Ball's travel expenses, according to Mr. Jacobs.

And who are the donors? No one will say.

"[The money's] not exclusively from the oil and gas industry," says Prof. Cooper. "It's also from foundations and individuals. I can't tell you the names of those companies, or the foundations for that matter, or the individuals."

When pushed in another interview, however, Prof. Cooper admits, "There were some oil companies."

The brilliance of the plan is that by going through the foundation and the university fund, donors get anonymity as well as charitable status for their donations. In the last two years, the Science Education Fund has received more than $200,000 in charitable donations through the Calgary Foundation. Yet its marketing director Kerry Longpré said in June that she had never heard of the Friends of Science. The foundation, she said, deals only with the university, which is left to administer donations as it sees fit.

Prof. Cooper and Mr. Jacobs both affirm that the Science Education Fund paid the bills for the Friends' anti-Kyoto video, Climate Catastrophe Cancelled. It features Canada's most vocal climate skeptics, including Prof. Ball, University of Ottawa hydrologist and paleoclimatologist Ian Clark, Carleton University paleoclimatologist Tim Patterson, University of Ottawa lecturer Tad Murty and retired meteorologist Madhav Khandekar, who is affiliated with the oil-industry-funded Cooler Heads Coalition.

It also includes Sallie Baliunas, a senior scientist with the George C. Marshall Institute in Washington, a fiercely anti-Kyoto think tank which has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from ExxonMobile.

Roman Cooney, the university's vice-president of external relations, insists that the Friends of Science is neither affiliated with nor endorsed by the school. And when he saw the University of Calgary's coat of arms on early copies of the anti-Kyoto video, Mr. Cooney ordered Prof. Cooper to remove it.

***
http://www.charlesmontgomery.ca/mrcool.html
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Post by Dardedar »

DAR
More. People who are actually friends of science should be very angry with the dishonesty of this scam front group. Bold mine.

***
"These people are ignorant. Well-meaning, but just plain ignorant," fumed Ian Rutherford, executive director of the Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society, which represents 800 Canadian atmospheric and oceanic scientists and professionals.

"The Friends of Science are driven by ideology and some kind of a misplaced understanding of how the world works. Many are what you would call paleogeologists. Looking at the geological record, they see evidence of wild swings in climate. Of course these swings are there: If you go back hundreds of millions of years, 40-million years, even 400,000 years, you will find wild swings in temperature over long periods of time. But that's irrelevant. There was hardly any life on earth, let alone human life, at that time. So their time scale is all out of whack.

"None of them ever come to our scientific conferences. They know they would be laughed out of the building. The stuff they say, some of it is so nonsensical it's hardly worth discussing."

In its own letter to the Prime Minister, the Meteorological and Oceanographic Society objected to the Friends' complaints about a lack of debate, pointing out that Canadian climate scientists from universities, government and the private sector participate actively in the IPCC's international reviews. The government, it argued, should be relying on IPCC reports for good scientific information.

But various levels of government have gone on to give Prof. Ball an audience. This spring he addressed the Alberta Tories in Calgary, as well as the province's standing policy committee on energy and sustainable development. On the trip Tom Harris organized for him in May, he met with the Ottawa Citizen editorial board, and gave his slide show to a half-dozen federal Conservative MPs and a clutch of Tory staffers. (Prof. Ball is not listed in the federal government's Lobbyists' Registry.)

He made a particular impression on Brad Trost, MP for Saskatoon Humboldt: "It really broadened the perspective. You know, maybe there is more uncertainty on [climate change]. Maybe we need to put more research into this to get a better idea," says Mr. Trost. "Just like the Y2K problem, we were a little oversold on that one. You sort of wonder. Just because something is repeated often, it doesn't make it true."

"In public relations," says Mr. Hoggan, "we call this the echo-chamber technique. You have Tim Ball saying the polar bears are fine. Then you get Tim Ball's PR guy writing the same thing. And then Tim Ball takes to the road, talks to reporters and does press briefings, making sure the message is repeated over and over.

"The effect is to delay public judgment on climate change, and thereby delay policy."
***

So with front groups and industry back door money we are treated to the same old show. As this article points out (not quoted above):

"It happened with the tobacco industry. It happened with the chemical industry. It happened with the asbestos industry. And now it's happening with climate change," he says.

DAR
This article really is the nail in the coffin of this group. These guys are just as bad as the creationists. Just as ignorant. Just as dishonest. Just as shameless and reprehensible. Nevertheless I very much look forward to seeing this DVD, and rebutting it's assertions. If I can't bring in an expert to do it, I'll do it myself.

D.
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Here is a huge Canadian site that has been researching these "Friends of Science" for quite some time. Really amazing. As they say in their heading:

"Clearing the PR Pollution that Clouds Climate Science."

http://www.desmogblog.com/friends-of-science

"Friends of Science" is a PR group, nothing more.
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Looks like forward thinking California is going to go after these PR spinners of science and their connections to car makers. From a rightwing GW skeptic site:

***
California AG Puts Climate Skeptics on Trial
By Steven Milloy
August 1, 2006

...

The State of California has filed a request in federal court to force auto makers to disclose all documents and communications between the companies and the so-called “climate skeptics.” California accuses the climate skeptics of playing a “major role in spreading disinformation about global warming.”

The underlying litigation is a lawsuit by General Motors, DaimlerChrysler Corp., and the Association of Automobile Manufacturers against the state of California challenging the state’s greenhouse gas emissions limits for new cars, light-duty trucks and sports utility vehicles (Central Valley Chrysler-Jeep Inc. v. Catherine Witherspoon, No. 04-6663).

California has been joined in the lawsuit by environmental activist groups including, the Sierra Club, Natural Resources Defense Council and Environmental Defense.

In a pre-trial discovery motion, California and the environmental groups asked for:

All DOCUMENTS relating to both GLOBAL WARMING and to any of the following individuals: S. Fred Singer, James Glassman, David Legates, Richard Lindzen, Patrick J. Michaels, Thomas Gale Moore, Robert C. Balling, Jr., Sherwood B. Idso, Craig D. Idso, Keith E. Idso, Sallie Baliunas, Paul Reiter, Chris Homer [sic], Ross McKitrick, Julian Morris, Frederick Seitz, Willie Soon, and Steven Milloy, including but not limited to:

1. All DOCUMENTS relating to any communications between YOU and these individuals, and
2. All DOCUMENTS relating to YOUR relationship (or the relationship of any automobile manufacturer or association of automobile manufacturers) with any of them, including but not limited to payments directly or indirectly from YOU or any other automobile manufacturer or association of automobile manufacturer to any of them.

The state then goes on to quote from Ross Gelbspan’s book entitled, “The Heat Is On”:

Ever since climate change took center stage at the 1992 UN Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED) in Rio de Janeiro, Pat Michaels and Robert Balling, together with Sherwood Idso, S. Fred Singer, Richard S. Lindzen, and a few other high-profile greenhouse skeptics have proven extraordinarily adept at draining the issue of all sense of crisis. They have made frequent pronouncements on radio and television programs, including a number of appearances by some of them on the Rush Limbaugh show; their interviews, columns, and letters have appeared in newspapers ranging from local weeklies to The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal. In the process they have helped create a broad public belief that the question of climate change is hopelessly mired in unknowns….

The tiny group of dissenting scientists have been given prominent public visibility and congressional influence out of all proportion to their standing in the scientific community on the issue of global warming. They have used this platform to pound widely amplified drumbeats of doubt about climate change. These doubts are repeated by virtually every climate-related story in every news-papers and every TV and radio news outlet in the country.

By keeping the discussion focused on whether there really is a problem, these dozen or so dissidents—contradicting the consensus view held by 2,500 of the world’s top climate scientists—have until now prevented discussion about how to address the problem.

California then asserts that:

As set forth above, Defendants are entitled to review the documents most likely to contain internal dissent at the manufacturers and the most likely such documents are those dealing with the tactics of entities like the GCC and individuals like the “climate skeptics.”
***

http://www.junkscience.com/Skeptics_on_trial.htm

DAR
Note, many people in the above list are featured in the "Friends of Science" documentary.
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Post by Hogeye »

NRC Exonerates "Hockey Stick" Graph, Ending "Mann-Hunt" by Two Canadian Skeptics Fri, 06/23/2006
We've already discussed this in another thread. The reporter got it wrong. He didn't know the difference between 400 and 2000, remember? What the panel report actually said was that warming over the last 25 years exceeded any peaks since 1600. Then they talk about the high 1000 years ago, aka the Medieval Warm Period. So in fact the panel refutes the Mann Hockeystick theory. Talk about faulty reporting with a politically correct spin!
Greenland's Melting Ice Sheet May Speed Rise in Sea Level
Note that neither study cited measures an increase in sea level. One looked at the Greenland ice-sheet melting rate, the other at snow accumulation. Both relied, not on observation of sealevel, but dubious computer climate models. As usual, I would ask why the sea level didn't rise during the MWP, when there was much less ice on Greenland.

That covers your points, Darrel. The rest is all ad hominem - attempting to villify the arguers rather than addressing the argument. Five messages of bullshit! BTW, I don't read that stuff.
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Post by Dardedar »

NRC Exonerates "Hockey Stick" Graph, Ending "Mann-Hunt" by Two Canadian Skeptics Fri, 06/23/2006
HOGEYE
We've already discussed this in another thread. The reporter got it wrong. He didn't know the difference between 400 and 2000, remember?
DAR
Obviously you didn't read the article. How are you going to get better from your situation if you won't take your medicine? How are you going to learn of you won't even read anything that disagrees with your isolated pet prejudices?

Again, the highlights, which you will ignore (link provided above):

***
But in a 155-page report, the 12-member panel convened by the National Academies said "an array of evidence" supported the main thrust of the paper. Disputes over details, it said, reflected the normal intellectual clash that takes place as science tests new approaches to old questions.

The study, led by Michael E. Mann, a climatologist now at Pennsylvania State University, was the first to estimate widespread climate trends by stitching together a grab bag of evidence, including variations in ancient tree rings and temperatures measured in deep holes in the earth.

It has been repeatedly attacked by Republican lawmakers and some business-financed groups as built on cherry-picked data meant to create an alarming view of recent warming and play down past natural warm periods.

At a news conference at the headquarters of the National Academies, several members of the panel reviewing the study said they saw no sign that its authors had intentionally chosen data sets or methods to get a desired result.

"I saw nothing that spoke to me of any manipulation," said one member, Peter Bloomfield, a statistics professor at North Carolina State University. He added that his impression was the study was "an honest attempt to construct a data analysis procedure."

More broadly, the panel examined other recent research comparing the pronounced warming trend over the last several decades with temperature shifts over the last 2,000 years. It expressed high confidence that warming over the last 25 years exceeded any peaks since 1600. And in a news conference here today, three panelists said the current warming was probably, but not certainly, beyond any peaks since the year 900.

The experts said there was no reliable way to make estimates for surface-temperature trends in the first millennium A.D.

In the report, the panel stressed that the significant remaining uncertainties about climate patterns over the last 2,000 years did not weaken the scientific case that the current warming trend was caused mainly by people, through the buildup of heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

"Surface temperature reconstructions for periods prior to the industrial era are only one of multiple lines of evidence supporting the conclusion that climatic warming is occurring in response to human activities, and they are not the primary evidence," the report said.

The 1999 paper is part of a growing body of work trying to pull together widely disparate clues of climate conditions before the age of weather instruments.

The main critiques were done by Stephen McIntyre, a statistician and part-time consultant in Toronto to minerals industries, and Ross McKitrick, an economist at the University of Guelph in Ontario.
***

DAR
This reminds me. I have made a mistake. These attacks on the hockey stick have been led by McIntyre and McKitrick above and I have been led down the path of taking these ass clowns seriously. I gave them this pass because the critiques I had considered were usually written by their very public opponents like Mann etc. So I feel into the trap that Hogeye and this camp of deniers have carefully laid. They don't have the science on their side, not even close, so they ask that we approach their stuff objectively, treat sides fairly as if both sides are equal valid and scientific. Since examining the underside of this GW warming skeptic beast I have found much more information on these characters and what I will be revealing is simply amazing! With McKitrick are talking Kent Hovind type asininity! I can't be these guys are getting away with this crap!
In going after these GW skeptics, M & M et al, we are on the cutting edge of a creationist/ID type PR campaign that has nothing to do with science, peer-review, honest exchange and any semblance of search for truth. It is political garbage of colossal perportions and these guys are to some degree getting away with it. Especially in Canada right now (strong energy interests there, US gets more oil from Canada than Saudia Arabia). This Globe and Mail article just came out days ago and is a biggie. Of course Hogeye can't read it because it is too painful. This is exactly the type of stuff I would like to see the freethinkers go after!
Back to the article:

***
They contended that Dr. Mann and his colleagues selected particular statistical methods and sets of data, like a record of rings in bristlecone pine trees, that were most apt to produce a picture of unusual recent warming. They also complained that Dr. Mann refused to share his data and techniques.

In an interview, Dr. Mann expressed muted satisfaction with the panel's findings. He said it clearly showed that the 1999 analysis has held up over time.

But he complained that the committee seemed to forget about the many caveats that were in the original paper. "Even the title of the paper on which all this has been based is as much about the caveats and uncertainties as it is about the findings," he said.

Raymond S. Bradley, a University of Massachusetts geoscientist and one of Dr. Mann's co-authors, said that the caveats were dropped mainly as the graph was widely reproduced by others. (The other author of the 1999 paper was Malcolm K Hughes of the University of Arizona.)

The report was done at the request of Representative Sherwood Boehlert, the New York Republican who is chairman of the House Science Committee, who called last November for a review of the 1999 study and related research to clear the air.

In a statement, Mr. Boehlert, who is retiring at the end of the year, expressed satisfaction with the results, saying, "There is nothing in this report that should raise any doubts about the broad scientific consensus on global climate change — which doesn't rest primarily on these temperature issues, in any event — or any doubts about whether any paper on the temperature records was legitimate scientific work."
***
What the panel report actually said was that warming over the last 25 years exceeded any peaks since 1600. Then they talk about the high 1000 years ago, aka the Medieval Warm Period. So in fact the panel refutes the Mann Hockeystick theory.
DAR
Precisely false, as shown above. If the panel refutes the Mann Hockeystick theory, why was Mann pleased with the findings? See bold above.
Talk about faulty reporting with a politically correct spin!
DAR
Your speciality!
That covers your points, Darrel. The rest is all ad hominem - attempting to villify the arguers rather than addressing the argument. Five messages of bullshit! BTW, I don't read that stuff.
DAR
I leave readers to decide how you can determine something is bullshit without reading it. Perhaps you are psychic.

I've got lots more coming. Whether you read it or not matters not in the least to me. But thanks for getting me fired up to investigate this. I was up until 4:00am last night!

D.
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Post by Hogeye »

I read the article. Moreover, I was able to distinguish between what the biased reporter said and what the actual panelists said.

What the panel actually wrote: There is "a high level of confidence that the last few decades of the 20th century were warmer than any comparable period in the last 400 years."

And: "... recent warmth is unprecedented for at least the last 400 years and potentially the last several millennia."

"Potentially" is the key word here; all they'll commit to is 400 years.

Darrel, in the future please be careful to distinguish between the opinion of the experts and the political spin of the reporter.

Of course, even the reporter admits that the MWP may have been hotter: "And in a news conference here today, three panelists said the current warming was probably, but not certainly, beyond any peaks since the year 900." Note that the three panalists interviewed are not necessarily giving the opinion of the panel at large.
Darrel wrote:If the panel refutes the Mann Hockeystick theory, why was Mann pleased with the findings?
Because the reporters spun it favorably to his alarmist position? Note that Mann doesn't say precisely what parts of his 1999 "analysis" the panel agrees with. He's basically proclaiming victory, an old Nixon trick. Since the panel admits there was an MWP, then they disagree with the Hockey Stick theory, since that denies an MWP. QED
Darrel wrote:I leave readers to decide how you can determine something is bullshit without reading it.
It's called "skimming," a useful technique.

McIntyre and McKitrick are statisticians who found errors in Mann98/99. Villify them all you want, but that has no bearing on whether statistical errors were in fact made.
Darrel wrote:It is political garbage of colossal perportions and these guys are to some degree getting away with it. Especially in Canada right now (strong energy interests there, US gets more oil from Canada than Saudia Arabia). This Globe and Mail article just came out days ago and is a biggie. Of course Hogeye can't read it because it is too painful. This is exactly the type of stuff I would like to see the freethinkers go after!
I guess I think more highly of freethinkers. I think that most freethinkers generally see through ad hominem attacks, and correctly discern what information is relevant and what is not. Hint: We don't care who gets paid by whom; show us specifically what the alleged errors are in M&M's statistical analysis of Mann98.
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Post by Dardedar »

Hogeye wrote:Darrel wrote:
If the panel refutes the Mann Hockeystick theory, why was Mann pleased with the findings?
Because the reporters spun it favorably to his alarmist position?
DAR
You are suggesting he didn't read the panels findings but only a reporters article? LOL. The panels position is clear. Mann was vindicated by the clear words of this prestigious panel. M & M were smacked down again. I think it is something like 22 times they have tried and been smacked down. So they fail, and can't get published in the proper journals so he turns to PR campaigns to fool the gullible public, just like the creationists and ID'ers do.
Would you like me to find each time M & M got roasted and post it? Would the be useful? Of course not. You have ignored substantive rebuttals of M & M in the past. I have some good ones coming when I get around to posting them up.
Since the panel admits there was an MWP, then they disagree with the Hockey Stick theory, since that denies an MWP.
DAR
Of course it doesn't. See the error bars. It just doesn't put it as high and as broad as the deniers do. And it doesn't appeal to a painting of grape farm in England to support some kind of a MWP as your DVD does (there are currently 400 grape farms in England). Don't you ever learn?
McIntyre and McKitrick are statisticians who found errors in Mann98/99.
DAR
They did find some. But as determined by this panel, they were not significant to it's conclusions, and quite contrary to what M & M asserted, not dishonestly manipulated. Mann clearly vindicated by those who know what they are talking about.

They are statisticians?

Stephen McIntyre has worked in hard-rock mineral exploration[1] for 30 years, much of that time as an officer or director of several public mineral exploration companies. He has also been a policy analyst at both the governments of Ontario and of Canada [2]. He holds a Bachelor of Science degree in pure mathematics from the University of Toronto, though no graduate degree.[3]

McKitrick is an economist. See the roasts of McKitrick in a separate post below. It is hard to read that and not seem him as some kind of a buffoon.

And M & M have made profound howling mistakes in their critiques. You can read all about them, most from peer-reviewed science journals, right here.
Villify them all you want,...
DAR
You never villify people do you?
but that has no bearing on whether statistical errors were in fact made.
DAR
And acknowledged. Check out M & M's amateur errors at the above link. There are a lot of them but that is just a little taste really. That was written in 2004.

Here is more. You won't understand any of it. M & M probably don't either, neither of them having training or specialty in the field in question. This is why they aren't taken seriously and continually get the smack down.

If anyone is interested in how this oil guy got so much attention, it was with a piece in the Wall Street Journal, here is a little summary:

***
A nontraditional path to scientific eminence

McIntyre began his career in climate studies in 2003 when he published a paper in Energy & Environment, an obscure social science journal that eschews traditional peer review (2003, 14, 751–772). McIntyre and his coauthor, economist Ross McKitrick, outlined what they called serious errors in the hockey-stick analysis that throw all the results into dispute. The original hockey-stick analysis plotted reconstructed Northern Hemisphere mean temperature variations since 1400 and found that since 1900, temperatures have increased to give the graph its distinctive shape (Nature 1998, 392, 779–787). The hockey-stick study’s lead author is Michael Mann, who recently became the director of the Earth System Science Center at Pennsylvania State University. Multiple subsequent studies by other researchers have yielded similar hockey-stick results, but climate-change skeptics continue to attack the research.


As a result of the Energy & Environment paper, lead author Stephen McIntyre, a Canadian, was flown to Washington, D.C., to brief U.S. business leaders and the staff of Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK), chair of the committee on Environment and Public Works. He also presented his findings that year at the Marshall Institute, a nonprofit organization whose chief executive officer is ExxonMobil lobbyist William O’ Keefe.

After this fleeting brush with fame, McIntyre retreated to Canada and began a more aggressive attack on the hockey stick. He launched a blog to attract attention to his research and created a website where he posted his manuscripts that had been rejected by Nature. But in early January of this year, he finally had a paper accepted into a real science journal—Geophysical Research Letters (GRL).

Decades of research have created a massive body of scientific literature on climate change, and thousands of new studies on the subject appear every year in different science journals. Yet, within weeks of publishing his first peer-reviewed study, McIntyre was profiled on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. The article ran 2209 words and was written by reporter Antonio Regalado.

Four days later, the Wall Street Journal editorial page praised Regalado’s reporting and launched an attack on the hockey stick, the IPCC, and the science of global warming.

To discover how often the Wall Street Journal carried stories on climate-change science, ES&T examined one year of coverage by the newspaper. (see sidebar “Distinctive coverage of global warming”). In April 2005, the paper ran a 169-word story highlighting a Science article authored by well-known climatologist Jim Hansen, director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies. A third, 576-word story, which was based on a press conference about scientific research, appeared in August 2004.

“It’s a bit out of balance, obviously,” laughs John Orcutt, president of the American Geophysical Union (AGU). “But the Wall Street Journal has a conservative point of view, and studies like [McIntyre’s] are the type of stuff that attracts them.”

“It is a concern if there is a group that thinks that this one paper is the most important to come out on climate change,” says Jay Famiglietti, an associate professor in earth system science at the University of California, Irvine, and editor-in-chief of GRL, the journal in which McIntyre published his study. “If I had a student come to me and say, “I found this one paper that proves that climate change is hogwash,” I’d say, “Well, that’s one paper out of how many? In science, you never look at [only] one paper.”

But the harshest critic of the whole issue is former Wall Street Journal page-one editor, Frank Allen. He now directs the Institutes for Journalism & Natural Resources in Missoula, Mont. When asked to read the front-page article, he described it to ES&T as a “public disservice” littered with “snide comments” and “unsupported assumptions”. He says he does not understand how the story got past the editors.

“It was a strange story ’cause it had this bizarre undertone of being investigative but it didn’t investigate,” says Allen. “And this piece—what I thought was bothersome about it—it purported to be authoritative, and it’s just full of holes.”
***
So the Wall Street Journal let a piece of junk through. No surprise there!

The person who wrote the article now questions the validity of it, here.

D.
Last edited by Dardedar on Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Dardedar »

Regarding McKitrick, the following is just delicious if you really like to see a slimy PR guy with an agenda and a spot of luck get his head handed to him on a topic of his own area of expertise (never mind climate change, for which he has no expertise).

***
I’ve had a closer look at the “bombshell” paper that Patrick Michaels described like this:

"After four years of one of the most rigorous peer reviews ever, Canadian Ross McKitrick and another of us (Michaels) published a paper searching for “economic” signals in the temperature record. … The research showed that somewhere around one-half of the warming in the U.N. surface record was explained by economic factors, which can be changes in land use, quality of instrumentation, or upkeep of records."

There seems to be some problems with their work. To understand them you need to understand the two different ways of measuring angles.

Image

Image

Can you spot the difference?

If you do calculations and get degrees and radians mixed up, you get the wrong answer. Which is what McKitrick did. His analysis included a variable cosablat, which was supposed to be the cosine of absolute latitude. Trouble is, the software he used expects angles to be measured in radians, his data has latitude in degrees, and he didn’t convert from degrees to radians. Consequently, every single number he calculates is wrong. I corrected the error and reran his regressions. The sizes of the “economic” signals were greatly reduced. They no longer “explain” half of the surface warming trend. Removing the effects of the economic variables now just reduces the warming trend for his sample from 0.27 degrees/decade to 0.18 degrees/decade, which is very close to the warming trend for the whole globe.

Even this overstates his results—McKitrick did not calculate statistical significance correctly—his analysis incorrectly assumes that each observation comes from a different country. His “economic signals” may not even be statistically significant.

Somehow these errors were not detected during the “four years of one of the most rigorous peer reviews ever”. Nor did peer review by Climate Research detect the problems. Unfortunately, this is not the first time that the peer review process at Climate Research has failed. Last year, several of the editors resignedafter another defective paper slipped through peer review. Oddly enough, that paper also attempted to cast doubt on anthropogenic global warming.

If you’re new here: In previous postings on Ross McKitrick I have shown how he messed up an analysis of the number of weather stations, showed he knew almost nothing about climate, flunked basic thermodynamics,couldn’t handle missing values correctly and invented his own temperature scale.

Update: John Quiggin confirms my findings.

This article (scroll to page 13) by Clare Goodess has more on the problems with the review process at Climate Research (McKitrick's site) that led to the resignation of half of the editors. Chris de Freitas, the same editor that published the previous improperly reviewed papers, also published the McKitrick and Michaels effort.

Update 28/8: A poster on the Internet Infidels forums demonstrates how easy it is to verify that McKitrick got it wrong.
***

DAR
That is just a tiny taste! Now you see why I was up until 4 AM. I was laughing my ass off at these incompetent fools you and the deniers constantly serve up to us (incidentally Tim Ball, the hero of your DVD says the whole CFC thing was a hoax, do you agree?). The above is perhaps less than 5% of the rip roaring roast these guys get. I encourage you to read it all here, and follow the links too. Delicious!

Most liberals are far too nice to take such glee in the deconstruction of nasty distortion meistys like these but I have no such compunction. I say tar 'em up good, apply the feathers, put them on a rail and run them out of town. That's what has happened to your M & M. The huge Globe and Mail article in Canada's most prestigious newspaper (which you won't read) is only going to add to the flames as these guys continue to get outed. I am glad to participate in the process in my own little way.

D.
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Post by Savonarola »

Darrel wrote:Can you spot the difference?
For those interested: because the images do not readily show...

You can load the images manually:
one degree
one radian

Or read this textual mathematical comparison:

One degree (°) is 1/360 of a circle. 90° is a right angle, and a 180° angle is straight.

One radian, on the other hand, is 1/(2pi), or about 1/6.28, of a circle, which corresponds to (1/(2pi))×360°, or ~57.3°.
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Post by Hogeye »

Deja vu. Darrel, you bring up the same weak RealClimate article that we discussed some time ago in another thread. So this time I don't have to study up, but simply recall the problem with that article. In short, the article doesn't address the errors M&M found in Mann98. Of course, unless you read McIntyre and McKitrick's paper "Corrections to the Mann et al (1998) Proxy Data Base and Northern Hemisphere Average Temperature Series" you'd never know it. Apparently, the RealClimate guys count on their readers not to have read the M&M article. Anyone who does can easily see the strawman.

Here's the RealClimate strawman:
RealClimate wrote:MM claim that the main features of the Mann et al (1998--henceforth MBH98) reconstruction, including the "hockey stick" shape of the reconstruction, are artifacts of a) the centering convention used by MBH98 in their Principal Components Analysis (PCA) of the North American International Tree Ring Data Bank ('ITRDB') data, b) the use of 4 infilled missing annual values (AD 1400-1403) in one tree-ring series (the 'St. Anne' Northern Treeline series), and c) the infilling of missing values in some proxy data between 1972 and 1980.
Here are the claims actually made by M&M:
McIntyre and McKitrick (2003 paper abstract) wrote:The data set of proxies of past climate used in Mann, Bradley and Hughes (1998, “MBH98” hereafter) for the estimation of temperatures from 1400 to 1980 contains collation errors, unjustifiable truncation or extrapolation of source data, obsolete data, geographical location errors, incorrect calculation of principal components and other quality control defects. We detail these errors and defects. We then apply MBH98 methodology to the construction of a Northern Hemisphere average temperature index for the 1400-1980 period, using corrected and updated source data. The major finding is that the values in the early 15th century exceed any values in the 20th century. The particular “hockey stick” shape derived in the MBH98 proxy construction – a temperature index that decreases slightly between the early 15th century and early 20th century and then increases dramatically up to 1980 — is primarily an artefact of poor data handling, obsolete data and incorrect calculation of principal components.
While the RealClimate guys claim that the problem is a mere "centering convention," the actual problems M&M found had to do with "obsolete versions [of data] and undisclosed truncation of time series." When recalculated using Mann's own method, "The newly calculated temperature index (see Figure 7) contradicts the MBH98 assertion of late 20th century uniqueness." Here is a list of errors in the database used in Mann98:
McIntyre and McKitrick (2003) wrote: (a) unjustified truncation of 3 series; (b) copying 1980 values from one series onto other series, resulting in incorrect values in at least 13 series; (c) displacement of 18 series to one year earlier than apparently intended; (d) unjustified extrapolations or interpolations to cover missing entries in 19 series; (e) geographical mislocations and missing identifiers of location; (f) inconsistent use of seasonal temperature data where annual data are available; (g) obsolete data in at least 24 series, some of which may have been already obsolete at the time of the MBH98 calculations; (h) listing of unused proxies; (i) incorrect calculation of all 28 tree ring principal components.
You'd never know about these if you only read one side of the story - RealClimate's strawman.

After correcting as best they could, McIntyre and McKitrick came up with this:

Image

So, it turns out that the NAS panel agrees more with M&M2003 than with Mann98.

I've quoted the panel directly to show that they 1) will only commit to (it being hottest in the last) 400 years (agreeing with M&M but not Mann), and 2) they concur that there was a Medieval Warm Period (like M&M but unlike Mann).

The only evidence you can come up with, Darrel, is tenuous and indirect: Mann liked the panel's report. Then you imply that vindicates everything Mann claimed! Weak.

BTW, here's a background page with a lot of links: The M&M Project
Darrel wrote:... and quite contrary to what M & M asserted, not dishonestly manipulated.
M&M never claimed that Mann et al were dishonest, only mistaken. Perhaps you need to lay off the ad hominem pages and read the studies instead.
Hogeye> Since the panel admits there was an MWP, then they disagree with the Hockey Stick theory, since that denies an MWP.

Darrel> Of course it doesn't. See the error bars.
It is true that the extremely wide error of margin makes Mann98 rather useless. I.e. Technically it supports both alarmists and deniers. However, the hockey stick graph itself indicates no MWP, and Mann himself (as you've quoted early and often) denies that there was a global MWP. If it's not very warm compared to past periods, then alarmism is uncalled for, as is massive spending and hardship to attempt to change the percentage of greenhouse gasses.

Hmmm - seems the well-poisoners are taking a degree/radians error in a different paper by McKitrick and claiming that proves everything he did is wrong. Duh.

Re the MWP: Darrel, I can see why you'd want to harp on the anecdotal evidence regarding grapes. The hard data from ice bores and sediments is pretty much unassailable.

Image
Here is the classic paleoclimate model, nothing like a hockey stick. It falls within the Mann98 margin of error, but does not inspire panic since, in perspective, it's not that hot compared to the MWP, and none of Gore's predicted catastrophes occured then.
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Post by Dardedar »

Hogeye wrote:Deja vu. Darrel, you bring up the same weak RealClimate article that we discussed some time ago in another thread.
DAR
Oh it's much more than just "an article" I was referencing for pity sake. See all of the links in actual peer reviewed articles that directly respond to the issue. M & M don't have anything that hasn't been smacked down and responded to by legitimate scientists in the field. I don't think they are taken seriously except by a few the public anymore.
So this time I don't have to study up, but simply recall the problem with that article. In short, the article doesn't address the errors M&M found in Mann98.
DAR
I don't believe you and I don't believe you understand the issue well enough to say that with any substance. You are just regurgitating pap from M& M, now completely discredited IMO. Here's my formula for them:

M & M = LOL.

I can't take them seriously anymore. Here is how real scientists respond to their type:

"None of them ever come to our scientific conferences. They know they would be laughed out of the building. The stuff they say, some of it is so nonsensical it's hardly worth discussing."

You act like you are responding to the material I provided but you are not. You don't acknowledge a single error on the part of M & M. Even they aren't so bold.
Of course, unless you read McIntyre and McKitrick's paper "Corrections to the Mann et al (1998) Proxy Data Base and Northern Hemisphere Average Temperature Series" you'd never know it.
DAR
You would also have to understand it and I have zero confidence that you do. So I rely upon this panel, not Mann, not M & M. They vindicate Mann as clearly stated in plain english you cannot spin.
So, it turns out that the NAS panel agrees more with M&M2003 than with Mann98.
DAR
Why didn't they say that? Consider, from the fellow who wrote the WSJ article with McKintyre ripping Mann:

***
Now, two independent research reports say the Canadians' critique may have limited significance. The studies, appearing this month in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, find that while there is a statistical snafu in the hockey-stick math, it may not strongly affect the graph's accuracy.

One study, from researchers at the GKSS Research Center in Geesthacht, Germany, confirmed "a glitch" in Dr. Mann's work but "found this glitch to be of very minor significance" when applied to some computer-generated models of climate history, according to a statement released by lead author Hans von Storch.

The other study, by Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution fellow Peter Huybers, argued the Canadians had overstated the effect of the problem. "The truth is somewhere in between, but closer to Dr. Mann," Dr. Huybers said. Both Dr. Huybers and Eduardo Zorita, a collaborator of Dr. von Storch, agreed they had yet to address all of the Canadians' criticisms.
***
And:

"...in a 155-page report, the 12-member panel convened by the National Academies said "an array of evidence" supported the main thrust of the paper. Disputes over details, it said, reflected the normal intellectual clash that takes place as science tests new approaches to old questions."

I've quoted the panel directly to show that they 1) will only commit to (it being hottest in the last) 400 years (agreeing with M&M but not Mann), and 2) they concur that there was a Medieval Warm Period (like M&M but unlike Mann).
DAR
It seems to me that your 1 and 2 are false. You one is based upon a waffle of "commit" versus "probable" and the other words people have been using to say we have a great deal of uncertainty about precise temperatures 1,000 years ago. Mann has provided many common caveats to any claims of certainty about this. Again:
"In an interview, Dr. Mann expressed muted satisfaction with the panel's findings. He said it clearly showed that the 1999 analysis has held up over time.

But he complained that the committee seemed to forget about the many caveats that were in the original paper. "Even the title of the paper on which all this has been based is as much about the caveats and uncertainties as it is about the findings," he said.

Raymond S. Bradley, a University of Massachusetts geoscientist and one of Dr. Mann's co-authors, said that the caveats were dropped mainly as the graph was widely reproduced by others. (The other author of the 1999 paper was Malcolm K Hughes of the University of Arizona.)"
But I think we are boring people here. Mann is vindicated. Get over it. It's done. The panel could have really ripped him a new one. They didn't. I've shown you massive basic errors of M & M. You conceed nothing and duck back to Mann. You are a true believer.
The only evidence you can come up with, Darrel, is tenuous and indirect: Mann liked the panel's report.
DAR
Or you could say the panel liked Mann's report. That's what counts. Spin spin spin. Is that all you've got? If M & M had a slam dunk case Mann would have been sunk, crushed. It could have happened. Clearly did not happen. But enough about the the hockey stick, how I am getting sucked in to talking about this ridiculous rightwing talking point? That one graph, selected from what, about a hundred in the huge report, is unnecessary to the global warming debate, which is entirely over for those who move in the scientific circles. All you have left is PR campaigns secretly funding non-experts put together to fool the public. Frank Luntz even admits it. It's like the last days of the tobbacco effort to say smoking doesn't cause cancer. It's like current creationists that pretend their is some scientific debate about evolution. It's pathetic.
Darrel wrote:... and quite contrary to what M & M asserted, not dishonestly manipulated.
Hogeye wrote:M&M never claimed that Mann et al were dishonest, only mistaken. Perhaps you need to lay off the ad hominem pages and read the studies instead.
DAR
I don't believe that for a minute. Do I need to go find this for you?

Hogeye> Since the panel admits there was an MWP, then they disagree with the Hockey Stick theory, since that denies an MWP.

Darrel> Of course it doesn't. See the error bars.
Hogeye wrote: It is true that the extremely wide error of margin makes Mann98 rather useless. I.e. Technically it supports both alarmists and deniers.
DAR
Or you could just say it is HONEST to admit that we do not know the temperatures from that time without large error bars. That's what an honest scientist would do.
Hmmm - seems the well-poisoners are taking a degree/radians error in a different paper by McKitrick and claiming that proves everything he did is wrong. Duh.
DAR
Seems you are skimming and not comprehending again. Boring. Waste of time. M & M have zero credibility with me. Too bad you aren't interested in seeing just how bad these guys are. The links above are really good.

D.
----------------------
Quote of the day (applies equally to creationists, "Friends of Science", Tim Ball and the global warming pack):

"None of them ever come to our scientific conferences. They know they would be laughed out of the building. The stuff they say, some of it is so nonsensical it's hardly worth discussing."

Question Hogeye ducked:
"Tim Ball, the hero of your DVD says the whole CFC thing was a hoax, do you agree?"

Edited by Savonarola, 20060815 0020: Fixed quote tags
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Post by Hogeye »

Hogeye> Of course, unless you read McIntyre and McKitrick's paper "Corrections to the Mann et al (1998) Proxy Data Base and Northern Hemisphere Average Temperature Series" you'd never know it.

Darrel> You would also have to understand it and I have zero confidence that you do.
Sounds like transference to me. I understand the gist of it. I'm amazed that someone calling himself a freethinker is saying to blindly believe authorities rather than trust your own brain.

Regarding the NAS panel report, here's what the panel actually wrote: There is "a high level of confidence that the last few decades of the 20th century were warmer than any comparable period in the last 400 years." No matter how much you twist, spin, or mutilate it, 400 is not 1000 is not 2000. Saying the panel vindicates Mann98 is mistaken.
Darrel> ... and quite contrary to what M & M asserted, not dishonestly manipulated.

Hogeye wrote> M&M never claimed that Mann et al were dishonest, only mistaken. Perhaps you need to lay off the ad hominem pages and read the studies instead.

Darrel> I don't believe that for a minute. Do I need to go find this for you?
Yes. I think you're just spouting bullshit from RealClimate. I think M&M (and Mann for that matter) have generally, to their credit, remained above crude ad hominem.

Thanks for the Tim Ball info. It led me to an excellent interview of him. I recommend that freethinkers read what Dr. Ball has to say, and judge his competence for themselves. (Rather than taking the word of seething partisans. Also you can read what Dr. Ball has to say about CFCs, which incidentally I agree with - but that's another thread.)
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Post by Savonarola »

Hogeye wrote:Thanks for the Tim Ball info. It led me to an excellent interview of him. I recommend that freethinkers read what Dr. Ball has to say, and judge his competence for themselves. (Rather than taking the word of seething partisans. Also you can read what Dr. Ball has to say about CFCs, which incidentally I agree with - but that's another thread.)
Since we're discussing the merits of the DVD here, and Ball's credibility is extremely relevant to this topic, I think that a review of Ball's competence is applicable to this thread.

I opted to search his remarks for references to CFCs.
Lucas Asks: We are told Ozone levels have also returned to their same levels that they were before the influx of chemicals that destroyed them. Is this false?

A; No. That is what the measurements show.
Image
No, this graph clearly shows that current levels are lower than levels in 1980. See also the less direct but trend-compatible graph here, keeping in mind that before 1980 ozone less than 200 Dobson units was rarely seen [in the Antarctic].

How quickly does ozone replace itself if left alone (like if it is no longer being hit by aerosol chemicals)

A; The major mistake in the original scare over ozone holes was to assume the sun's energy is constant. Ozone is create in a process called disassociation when ultraviolet radiation strikes free oxygen (O2) breaking them briefly into single oxygen molecules (O) that quickly merge in threes to create ozone (O3). [...] Ultraviolet radiation varies by up to 200% and the last IPCC report said solar variation was not a significant factor in temperature change but important in ozone variation. [...] There is a self correcting mechanism because as the ultraviolet penetrates further into the atmosphere it contacts more O2 and therefore more O is produced and more O3.
I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that "disassociate" was the reporter's mistake. The process is called dissociation, and in this case, photodissociation. (If the interview was written (e.g. an email interview), then Ball's busted on this.) However, either he gives a piss-poor explanation of the natural synthesis of O3 from O2, or he doesn't know what happens. More details including energy of the ultraviolet photons can be found below, but ultraviolet light can split an O2 molecule into atomic oxygen, and each atom combines with an existing molecule of O2 to form ozone.
Obviously, the existence of a strong "self-correcting" mechanism that Ball describes would prevent long-term differential trends. Yet we see long-term declines in the graphs. This is because Ball overstates the "self-correction" mechanism. From here:
Subject: 2.12) If the ozone is lost, won't the UV light just penetrate deeper into the atmosphere and make more ozone?

This does happen to some extent - it's called "self-healing" - and has the effect of moving ozone from the upper to the lower stratosphere. Recall that ozone is _created_ by UV with wavelengths less than 240 nm, but functions by _absorbing_ UV with wavelengths greater than 240 nm. The peak of the ozone absorption band is at ~250 nm, and the cross-section falls off at shorter wavelengths. The O2 and O3 absorption bands do overlap, though, and UV radiation between 200 and 240 nm has a good chance of being absorbed by _either_ O2 or O3. [Rowland and Molina 1975] (Below 200 nm the O2 absorption cross-section increases dramatically, and O3 absorption is insignificant in comparison.) Since there is some overlap, a decrease in ozone does lead to a small increase in absorption by O2. This is a weak feedback, however, and it does not compensate for the ozone destroyed. Negative feedback need not imply stability, just as positive feedback need not imply instability.

Numerical calculations of ozone depletion take the "self-healing" phenomenon into account, by letting the perturbed ozone layer come into equilibrium with the exciting radiation.
So, when I do ask Hogeye asks, and judge for myself, I find that Ball's competence is questionable at best.
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