Logic and Free Will [split from Std Creationism Thread]

[Savonarola]

The will of the father is that we come to Him by faith not works.

Then the father is a moron. Faith is the acceptance of a proposition without evidence. Faith is irrational; if the father gave us rationality, and if the father wants us to come to him, why would the father require that we be irrational?

I am morally bankrupt

I can guarantee that you're not, and that you weren't even before "finding God." Did you murder indiscriminately? Did you believe that it is morally acceptable to rape? No, you didn't. So the assertion that you had no morality before God is asinine.

and unable to please God

Trust me, this really isn't a problem. God is a jackass who is pleased by all sorts of atrocious things.

and that I needed God to give me righteousness through Christ

And this "righteousness" tells you that humans are worthless, immoral wastes of biomass without accepting God. Yes, I agree that that belief qualifies as "righteous," but not in the connotation you had in mind. What's disgusting is that you hold this position that humans are inherently, irretrievably despicable without God while claiming the moral high ground.

and I was going to have to depend on Him for everything.

How's that working out for you? I mean, sitting around all day and being provided with your needs by divine intervention? If you "depend upon Him for everything," then you don't have to work for a living, feed yourself, brush your own teeth, or take yourself to the toilet.

See, you do all of these things yourself, and it works out exactly the same for you as it does for people who don't accept the fairy tale of an invisible sky daddy.

And yes I like debating freethinkers it forces me to think-- freely.

No it doesn't. You haven't made a single point today that didn't come from your Big Book of Thoughtless Reference Stories. If you want to think freely, stop constraining yourself to a single source of dogmatic information.

[Doug]

So doing good works is not good enough even if done in his name.

The Bible is very contradictory on this, since it says you are saved, not by faith, but by works, and it also says you are not saved by works but by faith. There were competing theories on this by early Christians, and both side of the debate ended up being represented in the New Testament. And other theories too, not just these two. You should know about these contradictions in your Bible.

For example, in 1 Tim. 2:15 we find that “women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.” So one specific "work," childbearing, is what saves women. Interesting. Faith is only ONE of the requirements in addition to childbearing, so faith is not a sufficient condition to save a woman, according to 1 Timothy.

Jesus tells someone what he must do to be gain eternal life: ”...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” (Mat. 19:17). So works ARE required. Faith is not enough, according to Jesus. So what's this about works being superfluous?

I am morally bankrupt and unable to please God and that I needed God to give me righteousness through Christ was good enough.

That is very confused. Even if God or someone else forgives you, this does not make you righteous. If you kill 50 people in cold blood, and someone, even God, forgives you, it is absurd to say that you are now righteous. That makes a mockery out of morality. Righteousness would then have nothing to do with whether or not you do what is right, which is contradictory. Suppose you never did what is right, and God forgives you. You are a righteous person who never did right? How ridiculous.

[youngearther]

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:3

It is possible for a murderer to be forgiven and to be made righteous.

I was not a bad person on the human level nor am I saying freethinkers are bad people.
If all of us were to try to swim from California to Hawaii none of us would make it, but some would make it further than others. So in the same way some people are better than others but none can make it to God.

If you look at my two ships illustration, I was trying to point out it is our position (ie am I in Christ or in Adam) that determines my eternal destiny not my works.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11

If you were coming home with supplies for a romantic dinner and found your significant other in bed with another, How would you feel? Would good works be sufficient for her to win you back? God is offended that you chose Adam and not Christ. He has provided everything for you and is entreating you now to come back to Him. "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9

[Savonarola]

And yes I like debating freethinkers it forces me to think-- freely.

No it doesn't. You haven't made a single point today that didn't come from your Big Book of Thoughtless Reference Stories. If you want to think freely, stop constraining yourself to a single source of dogmatic information.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:3
....
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11
....
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9

What happened to thinking freely? Hell, what happened to thinking critically?

[Doug]

It is possible for a murderer to be forgiven and to be made righteous.

I explained some conceptual problems with saying that someone can become righteous simply by being forgiven. Repeating your assertion to the contrary does not address my points. So you have not rebutted me.

Explain HOW it can be that a person who has not done anything morally right can be "righteous" simply by God's forgiveness. That makes no sense. If righteousness is a condition determined solely by one's relationship to God (eg., whether God likes you, or something like that), one might counter that there is no compelling reason to accept that as a definition of righteousness. A serial killer who "accepts" Jesus ten seconds before being put to death in prison is "righteous," but Gandhi, who worked tirelessly to help hundreds of millions of people is condemned to hell for not being a Christian. Is that what you have in mind? A more absurd view of "righteousness" could hardly be imagined.

If you look at my two ships illustration, I was trying to point out it is our position (ie am I in Christ or in Adam) that determines my eternal destiny not my works.

I cited some scriptural examples where one is saved by works and faith is not sufficient for salvation. Why don't you address those examples instead of just proving that the Bible is contradictory?

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9

Oh, confess with my mouth. Wow, I was going to fart it out my ass, but I'm glad the Bible is here to tell us what orifice to use for confession. Gosh, the Bible is just chock-full of useful information!

Again, I gave counterexamples from the Bible. Address those, or you are just proving that the Bible is contradictory.