Evolution FTailes!

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Dardedar
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by Dardedar »

kwlyon wrote:As for dropping by the Free Thinker forum and engaging in pleasant conversation, I warned you fairly that this may not be possible.
DAR
Bah!
I am not so sure it is a place you would actually enjoy posting on
DAR
More uncensored freedom than they know what to do with! This patriots, they babble and babble about liberty and freedom, and then when have the opportunity to actually experience it, THEY CAN'T HANDLE IT.

Maybe we should have a warning at the top of the forum some where. Something like:

Proceed carefully if you traffic in unsubstantiated claims and unreason. There are freethinkers in the water, and they bite.
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

Last...I think poopie
+++++++++++++++++
Kevin,

I was going to write a response to your last post but now that you've revealed yourself, I have to share my slight surprise at your nonchalant attitude about your open admission to employ deception as a form of furthering your cause. What makes your attempt to infiltrate this forum (pretending to be nice or by coming in posing as a YEC), with anything besides your own personality, noble or forthright?

To be transparent with you, I have on more than one occasion second guessed certain swift actions that Ikester has taken with specific members in the past. The more I get to see both sides the more I realize how he is more in tune with detecting a professional scoffer, like yourself (who is only posing to be genuine) than I am.

It's actually funny how your own screen name exposes your modus operandi. Poor pauliexcluded will probably be excluded from the forum because he's so smart. All he has to do is tell people that he's a big bad expert and the scaredy-pants Christians will exclude him. All Kevin did was offer corrections (which I haven't seen one yet) and those mean old Christians run for their Bibles and hide, right?

Ikester, good job dealing with this faker as quick as you did. Case closed.

Kevin, I hope you figure out which one of your multiple personalities is the real one so you can start to determine if he/she/it has any desire for actual truth.

later,
Adam


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That is ashame. I certainly feel, through my venting, that I have failed you. Though it is likely you were just playing "good cop bad cop" with me, I rather enjoyed our discussion. Despite what your offense/fear may lead you to think of me, I would like to thank you for being civil and respectful. Even in this last post your behavior is admirable when compared to your admin's.

Again I apologize that you were offended by my comments--they were more than a little uncalled for. However that is kinda like my living room...and when we are in my house I will speak my mind as I see fit. When I feel the need to vent my frustrations, I will do so... though sometimes, admittedly, I go a little too far. I have been, as you are well aware, VERY respectful on your forum through all of this. This is because this is YOUR living room. That post, that has so offended you, was the result of YOUR ADMIN picking a fight. Of course he "spots the angry atheist"! HE MAKES THEM ANGRY THROUGH HIS OBSERD BEHAVIOR!!!! Seriously, how can you not see this? And when I didn't return his venom he didn't quite know what to do with me. So he sent you in to see what dirt you could sniff out.

Look, neither one of you seem to be bad people. However the behavior on this forum is very detrimental to the christian faith and frankly just plain mean. I truly do hope you realize this at some point and work to correct it. I am very sorry we did not get the opportunity to discuss more. I very much enjoyed our exchange. As we seem to be done here I will now take my bow. I wish you all the best. You are still welcome to drop by our forum any time if for whatever reason the mood strikes you. You are also still welcome to drop me a line with regards to any questions you may have. I won't hold my breath...but you are certainly welcome. That goes for the both of you.

Kevin
Last edited by kwlyon on Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

Darrel wrote:
kwlyon wrote:As for dropping by the Free Thinker forum and engaging in pleasant conversation, I warned you fairly that this may not be possible.
DAR
Bah!
Yes well...it was only right to warn him. I mean, these really are "good people". They are not raping and pillaging....well....they are kinda raping society and human progress but it is not intentional...I hope. I can't help having some compassion. Because I don't understand them, I guess I am just wired to assume the best in them. But yes, what I meant by my warning was:

If you come here posting things like 'Boyle's law is 60 times more powerful than gravity' you will get your ass handed to you on a falafel. Beware that you are leaving the play pen and entering a forum of free speech.

And I mean you guys are rather respectful. You ARE a bit hard on GreyBear from time to time if you are not aware of it...he is a little cooky but he is a nice guy. A nice guy who asserts some rather bizarre ideas about the physical world that he has not bothered to even attempt to understand or research nor seek wise counsel, but I don't think he would ban me from his forum...or any of you guys for that matter. He does open himself up to it by posting his ideas on an open forum. This is the the cost of freedom of speech...the necessity to provide evidence and sound argument for your assertions. If it is any other way I don't really see the point--you might as well waste away the hours discussing pink unicorn penises. Such absurdly censored discussions as those on this fairytale blog are utterly unproductive. I warned him because I know that I tend to be overly sympathetic to people who are, frankly, diluted. And I then come HERE to vent!!! I knew that you guys would respond to him in a rightfully aggressive fashion if he started dishing out the crazy.

Oh...and let us not forget that I started out the thread on a bitch-fest wherein Jesus stuck a pistol in his mouth because he couldn't handle the YECs!!! That is not offensive! NOT AT ALL!!!
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by RobertMadewell »

Robert's Creation Fairytales Dump


Jan 31 2010, 09:40 PM Post #1
RobertMadewell
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Hey guys, I was directed to this forum by a friend.

I am what you might call an agnostic atheist. Which is to say that while I acknowledge the possibility that God exists, I really don't believe he does or that if there is a God he probably isn't what is described by theists. I'm an atheist by doubt rather than by faith. However, I prefer to be called a non-theist, but that option was not available when I registered and I couldn't click on both atheist and agnostic.

I think many get into too many arguments on the finer points of non-theism. Non-theism is a personal thing to me, so I probably do differ with other non-theists with regard to some issues.

I am the son of an IFCA minister from south west Missouri. I was indoctrinated as a fundamentalist. I was taught a form of creationism known as Gap Creationism, which is only slightly different than Young Earth Creationism. I think IFCA is pretty much YEC anymore. Currently, I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

Are there any gap creationists on this forum? I'd love to discuss some of the finer points of Gap vs. YEC.

My de-conversion started when I read the bible as an excercise to better know God through his word. I started at the beginning and read it cover to cover. What I found was appalling to me. Some of the things that God commands people to do in the OT (a few in the NT too) are not things that I would call moral or divinely inspired. (see Deut 21:18-21) Of course, my Dad explained to me that that was a different time and that the people were under the law. That was just not a good enough answer to me. To me, brutality is brutality, no matter when it was practised. I didn't go completely non-theistic at that time. It happened in stages and eventually I realized that I just didn't believe anymore. For me to pretend that I did would have been dishonest to myself and everyone around me. I still attend church at a local Unitarian Universalist Church with my wife, sometimes. They don't care whether you are a theist or not and the social aspect of church is the same as any other church sans dogma.

My science strong point is Astronomy. I am also fairly familiar with the Bible. I also have read The Book of Mormon and The Quran since my de-conversion. I also enjoy pondering the classical arguments for the existence of God. IF anyone wants me to participate in a discussion, message me to let me know what topic you have posted at. For the time being, I'll check this board every day.

Thanks for accepting me into the membership and maybe we can all learn from each other to better understand the weird universe we have found ourselves in. A monumental project to be sure.



Jan 31 2010, 10:10 PM Post #2
ikester7579
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Hi and welcome to the forum.


QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
Hey guys, I was directed to this forum by a friend.


We get many members who say this.


QUOTE
I am what you might call an agnostic atheist. Which is to say that while I acknowledge the possibility that God exists, I really don't believe he does or that if there is a God he probably isn't what is described by theists. I prefer to be called a non-theist, but that option was not available when I registered and I couldn't click on both atheist and agnostic.


You can explain how you believe in your sig.


QUOTE
I think many get into too many arguments on the finer points of non-theism. Non-theism is a personal thing to me, so I probably do differ with other non-theists with regard to some issues.


There are many levels of belief as there are disbelief.


QUOTE
I am the son of an IFCA minister from south west Missouri. I was indoctrinated as a fundamentalist. I was taught a form of creationism known as Gap Creationism, which is only slightly different than Young Earth Creationism. I think IFCA is pretty much YEC anymore.

Are there any gap creationists on this forum? I'd love to discuss some of the finer points of Gap vs. YEC.


Gap creation is pretty much dead because it does not hold much water being reconffirmed anywhere in scripture. But if you want to debate it, I know enough about it to debate it.


QUOTE
My de-conversion started when I read the bible as an excercise to better know God through his word. I started at the beginning and read it cover to cover. What I found was appalling to me. Some of the things that God commands people to do in the OT (a few in the NT too) are not things that I would call moral or divinely inspired. (see Deut 21:18-21) Of course, my Dad explained to me that that was a different time and that the people were under the law. That was just not a good enough answer to me. To me, brutality is brutality, no matter when it was practised. I didn't go completely non-theistic at that time. It happened in stages and eventually I realized that I just didn't believe anymore. For me to pretend that I did would have been dishonest to myself and everyone around me. I still attend church at a local Unitarian Universalist Church with my wife, sometimes. They don't care whether you are a theist or not and the social aspect of church is the same as any other church sans dogma.


People who are truly saved and without doubt already in their hearts do not allow such things to make them stray away from salvation. You would have enough faith to pray and wait until God shows you why, instead of basing your de-conversion on such a small tidbit.

And we do not allow "universalism" to be "promoted" here. You can debate it though. Promote is where you try to put something into positive light as to convert others to it (evangelize). Or even up to PMing others with the same intent. Evangelize would be a better word to use as to what we would frown upon concerning universalism.


QUOTE
My science strong point is Astronomy. I am also fairly knowledgable of the Bible. I also have read The Book of Mormon and The Quran since my de-conversion. I also enjoy pondering the classical arguments for the existence of God. IF anyone wants me to participate in a discussion, message me to let me know what topic you have posted at. For the time being, I'll check this board every day.

Thanks for accepting me into the membership and maybe we can all learn from each other to better understand the weird universe we have found ourselves in. A monumental project to be sure.






If you read my sig it has important info on how the forum program works and how things can be set up to make your time here easier and more productive. Pay attention to the quote box limit. The quote limit is written in code and is not an option we can change. We have to abide by this as well. Which the limit is 10 quote boxes per post. There are ways around this as shown in my sig.



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____________________________
Experience is a dear teacher, and some fools will learn no other way.
So much deception to prove a true fact? Man, that's a oxymoron if I ever heard one.
anticreationist debate tactics.
Pat two: Debate tactics
Types of creation.

Forum info to help out members:
1) 10 quote boxes are allowed per post. We cannot change it because it's not an option, so we have to abide by this also.
2) If you are posting more than 10 total quote boxes, you can use the "code" boxes for all quotes over 10. Code box works just like quote box. The only difference between code boxes and quote boxes are 2 things. The person you quote will not appear at the top. And BB codes are disabled (bold lettering, colors etc...) But everything else is the same.
3) To keep up with everywhere you are debating in this forum. Just click on your own name, then click "find members posts". This will list all of your posts in backward order. Newest to oldest. And from that page you can go to all your posts and never miss responding to those you are debating.
4) At the top of each thread, in the area where you post. You have an option to "track this topic". When you click on this link you can select many options of how you would like to be notified when someone responds to a topic (e-mail etc...). In this way if you have your own topic, or well involved in someone elses. You can know through e-mails when someone responds so you don't have to visit the forum to find out.
This also goes for a whole forum section. If you debate quite frequently in one forums section, and would like to be notified when someone responds. You can also subscribe to a whole forum section by clicking on subscribe while in that section.
5) There are also a selection of different forum views. Above the link where it says: track this topic. You will see outline, standard, and linear. The forum default is standard. You can click on the other views to see what they look like.
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Jan 31 2010, 11:36 PM Post #3
RobertMadewell
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I think I was introducing myself and giving a little background about myself. I assure you that that was my only intention. I really have no interest in promoting UU or even non-theism. I only mentioned it to establish that I occasionally do attend a 'church'. I suppose I could've left that out. I am actually not a UU. My wife is. I'm sorry, if that was out of line.
QUOTE
People who are truly saved and without doubt already in their hearts do not allow such things to make them stray away from salvation. You would have enough faith to pray and wait until God shows you why, instead of basing your de-conversion on such a small tidbit.
I would love to discuss that with you. Perhaps, one of us could start a thread in a more appropriate section. I do want to abide by your rules since they seem to be so important to you.



Feb 1 2010, 02:23 AM Post #4
AFJ
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QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Jan 31 2010, 09:40 PM)
Hey guys, I was directed to this forum by a friend.

I am what you might call an agnostic atheist. Which is to say that while I acknowledge the possibility that God exists, I really don't believe he does or that if there is a God he probably isn't what is described by theists. I'm an atheist by doubt rather than by faith. However, I prefer to be called a non-theist, but that option was not available when I registered and I couldn't click on both atheist and agnostic.

I think many get into too many arguments on the finer points of non-theism. Non-theism is a personal thing to me, so I probably do differ with other non-theists with regard to some issues.

I am the son of an IFCA minister from south west Missouri. I was indoctrinated as a fundamentalist. I was taught a form of creationism known as Gap Creationism, which is only slightly different than Young Earth Creationism. I think IFCA is pretty much YEC anymore. Currently, I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

Are there any gap creationists on this forum? I'd love to discuss some of the finer points of Gap vs. YEC.

My de-conversion started when I read the bible as an excercise to better know God through his word. I started at the beginning and read it cover to cover. What I found was appalling to me. Some of the things that God commands people to do in the OT (a few in the NT too) are not things that I would call moral or divinely inspired. (see Deut 21:18-21) Of course, my Dad explained to me that that was a different time and that the people were under the law. That was just not a good enough answer to me. To me, brutality is brutality, no matter when it was practised. I didn't go completely non-theistic at that time. It happened in stages and eventually I realized that I just didn't believe anymore. For me to pretend that I did would have been dishonest to myself and everyone around me. I still attend church at a local Unitarian Universalist Church with my wife, sometimes. They don't care whether you are a theist or not and the social aspect of church is the same as any other church sans dogma.

My science strong point is Astronomy. I am also fairly familiar with the Bible. I also have read The Book of Mormon and The Quran since my de-conversion. I also enjoy pondering the classical arguments for the existence of God. IF anyone wants me to participate in a discussion, message me to let me know what topic you have posted at. For the time being, I'll check this board every day.

Thanks for accepting me into the membership and maybe we can all learn from each other to better understand the weird universe we have found ourselves in. A monumental project to be sure.





Hi Robert,

Welcome. I used to believe the gap theory--if that is the same thing. It's been a long time since I studied the scriptures on it though. In a nutshell it teaches the reason the earth is old is because Lucifer (Satan) in a previous age ruled this planet. When he fell he was cast to the earth and the earth was destroyed. What we see in Gen. 1:2--the earth without form and void, covered with water--is a result of this destruction. The creation story is the start of a new age of man. Satan is ruled by jealousy of man who basically has been given lordship over his old jurisdiction.

I have always leaned toward literalism, and in the power of God. The reason being I have had the opportunity to see true faith at work, the power of God changing me--and feeling it, and things come to pass that were predicted by not only scripture, but by the impressions of those who believe it wholeheartedly. Be blessed. AFJ



Feb 1 2010, 04:09 AM Post #5
ikester7579
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QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 02:36 AM)
I think I was introducing myself and giving a little background about myself. I assure you that that was my only intention. I really have no interest in promoting UU or even non-theism. I only mentioned it to establish that I occasionally do attend a 'church'. I suppose I could've left that out. I am actually not a UU. My wife is. I'm sorry, if that was out of line.I would love to discuss that with you. Perhaps, one of us could start a thread in a more appropriate section. I do want to abide by your rules since they seem to be so important to you.

Well I try to head off trouble before it begins. Just allowing it to happen and having to warn members is not my cup of tea.

As far as what you said I have no problem with it. It was good that you relayed the information. But not knowing you I did not know your intentions. We have had people come in here and try to evangelize for universalism before. I just wanted to head off trouble before it started.

You can start a thread in the general conversation area in the Christian section on what I said if you like. I can address it there. People complained the last time I addressed anything in this section.



--------------------

____________________________
Experience is a dear teacher, and some fools will learn no other way.
So much deception to prove a true fact? Man, that's a oxymoron if I ever heard one.
anticreationist debate tactics.
Pat two: Debate tactics
Types of creation.

Forum info to help out members:
1) 10 quote boxes are allowed per post. We cannot change it because it's not an option, so we have to abide by this also.
2) If you are posting more than 10 total quote boxes, you can use the "code" boxes for all quotes over 10. Code box works just like quote box. The only difference between code boxes and quote boxes are 2 things. The person you quote will not appear at the top. And BB codes are disabled (bold lettering, colors etc...) But everything else is the same.
3) To keep up with everywhere you are debating in this forum. Just click on your own name, then click "find members posts". This will list all of your posts in backward order. Newest to oldest. And from that page you can go to all your posts and never miss responding to those you are debating.
4) At the top of each thread, in the area where you post. You have an option to "track this topic". When you click on this link you can select many options of how you would like to be notified when someone responds to a topic (e-mail etc...). In this way if you have your own topic, or well involved in someone elses. You can know through e-mails when someone responds so you don't have to visit the forum to find out.
This also goes for a whole forum section. If you debate quite frequently in one forums section, and would like to be notified when someone responds. You can also subscribe to a whole forum section by clicking on subscribe while in that section.
5) There are also a selection of different forum views. Above the link where it says: track this topic. You will see outline, standard, and linear. The forum default is standard. You can click on the other views to see what they look like.
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Feb 1 2010, 06:21 AM Post #6
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QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
Hey guys, I was directed to this forum by a friend.






Hello Robert, and welcome to the forum.


QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
I am what you might call an agnostic atheist.

Not to be argumentative, but most professing atheists are actually practicing agnostics (and you’ll find none that will admit it). There are very few true atheists anymore because it is so hard to defend a worldview that is basically foundationally bereft.

You can see more of what I’m talking about here:
http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum ... =3001&st=0

Anyway, what you’ll find is that both statements (when cemented together) in an actual oxymoron.


QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
Which is to say that while I acknowledge the possibility that God exists, I really don't believe he does or that if there is a God he probably isn't what is described by theists.

And this is the rub isn’t it… If God does actually exist, to remain an atheist (or even an agnostic) is a precarious razor to stand on indeed. And to claim that He (God) doesn’t exist, is a claim about God, is it not? And to make such a claim is based on faith, is it not?

Much to think about, and decide upon in such a short life.


QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
I'm an atheist by doubt rather than by faith. However, I prefer to be called a non-theist, but that option was not available when I registered and I couldn't click on both atheist and agnostic.

An atheist by doubt is still based on faith Robert. Which is still a theistic approach, and is still a theistic stance.



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Feb 1 2010, 07:27 AM Post #7
Mankind
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Welcome to the forum. Do you sometimes ask yourself why does God allow bad things to happen? Well God stopped bad things from happening by being "brutal" if you will, or I would replace it with "just". Is it brutal to kill someone in self-defense or self-defense of your family or is it just? The earth was filled with violence before the flood, was it brutal to stop that? God's chosen people were to bring forth a savior for all of mankind, was it brutal to make sure that happened?



Feb 1 2010, 09:20 AM Post #8
Scanman
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QUOTE(Mankind @ Feb 1 2010, 10:27 AM)
Welcome to the forum. Do you sometimes ask yourself why does God allow bad things to happen? Well God stopped bad things from happening by being "brutal" if you will, or I would replace it with "just". Is it brutal to kill someone in self-defense or self-defense of your family or is it just? The earth was filled with violence before the flood, was it brutal to stop that? God's chosen people were to bring forth a savior for all of mankind, was it brutal to make sure that happened?

The end justifies the means?

God commanded that women and children be slaughtered...I think that is what he referring to.

"They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." Josh 6:21

"...all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai." Josh 8:24,25

"Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it. They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it." Josh 10:36,37

This scenario of 'leave no one breathing' is continued, city after city after city.

I believe that later on, God allowed them to take the women and children as slaves.

Anyone today would regard this as horrendous. It is one aspect of God's actions that I have difficulty defending (if indeed, God actually commanded these things)

WWJD

Somehow I can't picture him running through the cities impaling women and children with his sword.

Peace



Feb 1 2010, 10:23 AM Post #9
RobertMadewell
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QUOTE
Anyway, what you’ll find is that both statements (when cemented together) in an actual oxymoron.

From Wiktionary
Atheism:
1. Absence of, or rejection of, belief in the existence of a god or gods.
2. The stance that a deity or deities do not exist.

Agnostic:
1. The view that absolute truth or ultimate certainty is unattainable, especially regarding knowledge not based on experience or perceivable phenomena.
2. The view that the existence of God or of all deities is unknown, unknowable, unproven, or unprovable.
3. Doubt, uncertainty, or scepticism regarding the existence of a God or of all deities.

For atheism, I was using #2. For agnosticism, I was using #3 (#2 is also applicable). I don't see how those two are mutally exclusive.

I'm sure that you do not believe in Ganesha, so I'll use him as an example. That way you might be able to get past the prejudice of having to believe in your god against all uncertainty. For example, I can be also be agnostic-atheistic concerning the existance of Ganesha. I am skeptical that he is a real diety. The arguments for his existence fail to convince me. Because, I have no compelling reason to believe in Ganesha, I can take the stand that he does not exist. Absolute certainty is not needed. I'm sure you believe that their is compelling evidence for your particular god, so go for it. Open a thread in a more appropriate section, message me and I'll be there.


QUOTE
An atheist by doubt is still based on faith Robert. Which is still a theistic approach, and is still a theistic stance.
Doubt equals faith? First I've heard of that.

More Wiktionary
Doubt:
1. To lack confidence in; to disbelieve, question, or suspect.

Faith:
2. (Christian theology) Belief and trust in the Christian God's promises revealed through Christ in the New Testament.

Theism:
1. belief in the existence of one or more deities.
2. belief in the existence of a personal creator God, especially by or through revelation.
(#2 is probably more applicable in our case)

Using those definitions, I tend to think that doubt is mutally exclusive of both faith and theism.

I post dictionary definitions to avoid equivocation.

QUOTE
Welcome to the forum. Do you sometimes ask yourself why does God allow bad things to happen?

Not much anymore. Because, I don't believe that God allows bad things to happen. Nature is brutal, but it is also morally neutral. Example: Haiti's disaster was not because God was punishing them, but because the capital city sits upon an active fault line.

QUOTE
Well God stopped bad things from happening by being "brutal" if you will, or I would replace it with "just". Is it brutal to kill someone in self-defense or self-defense of your family or is it just?

Yes, depending on circumstance. However, I don't think that Deut 21:18-21 is describing self-defense or defense of family. How is killing a son, self defense or defending your family? How about forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist?

QUOTE
The earth was filled with violence before the flood, was it brutal to stop that?

The only evidence you have is in the bible. I do not consider the bible accurate enough or authorative.

QUOTE
God's chosen people were to bring forth a savior for all of mankind, was it brutal to make sure that happened?

Again, I do not consider the bible authorative.





Feb 1 2010, 01:05 PM Post #10
RobertMadewell
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You know, after reading the other threads, I have reconsidered my membership in the forum. This forum, IMO is not a hospitable evironment for civilized discussion. It appears to me that the opposing veiw to the view of the administrators is not considered on equal footing.

This being the case, it is my opinion that no common ground can be realized in this forum, under such conditions. It also appears to me the the legalistic rules of this forum are designed to stifle any dissenting opinions from fundamentalist christianity.

This is not a place at all for civilized discussion because no civilized disscussion can be possible if you are constantly being threatened with censorship for practically anything. (I've seen this in the other threads.) I also suspect that the theist is given preferential treatment with regards to the forum rules.

So, ikester or Ron, if you have sufficient administrative priveleges, would one of you mind deleting my membership? I wouldn't even mind if you ban me from this forum as well, since I really do not intend to join again. I believe you have the right to run a forum under these conditions. I'm just asking for the right to not be a part of it.

Thank you,
Robert



Feb 1 2010, 03:49 PM Post #11
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Wish you well, it be fun to debate.



Feb 1 2010, 06:11 PM Post #12
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Robert, hang around awhile...atheist get a lot fairer shake then us backslidden Theistic Evolutionist.

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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by Olivia »

Dang, Kevin! You were super gracious and patient on that thread, much more so than I could have been.
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

Olivia wrote:Dang, Kevin! You were super gracious and patient on that thread, much more so than I could have been.
Perhaps I was just making up for the horrific angry post that I started this thread off on. I honestly do feel bad about it..but it is how I feel regarding "fake christians". Part of what helped me to break free of "faith" was meeting really nice pagans/atheist/agnostics. It forced me to realize that they were not the spawn of satan.

I was impressed with Robert's interaction. He gave them a chance...and when they jumped his case for "evangelizing for the UU" he flat told them to delete his account...he wouldn't be there monkey! These are the kinds of reactions that wake people up. You have to be incredibly diluted to see the mod on this forum as the good guy in this exchange...and he is dumb enough to let people read it.

Kevin
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by Dardedar »

Ha ha, more good stuff.

Now you see how special and rare the Big Dog is? He's crazy but has decided not to censor (well, except you can't say teabagger). He takes his lumps.

Two little bits: It sure would be easier reading if you guys would take out some of the huge swaths of duplication out. Just select the junk text, hit backspace, and poof, it's gone.

Kevin, you keep saying "diluted" when I think you mean "deluded."

Oh, and keep trying to get some of these funny bunnies to come over here! And if you get a live one that you want us to be on a our best behavior for, you can always ask (lot's a luck!). Otherwise, it's every goat for them self.
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

Darrel wrote: Kevin, you keep saying "diluted" when I think you mean "deluded."
Damn you Spellcheck! Thanks...I will keep an eye out for that...
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

First message from Adam:
QUOTE(pauliexcluded @ Feb 1 2010, 10:44 PM)
"I certainly feel, through my venting, that I have failed you."


You failed yourself.

QUOTE(pauliexcluded @ Feb 1 2010, 10:44 PM)
Though it is likely you were just playing "good cop bad cop" with me, I rather enjoyed our discussion.


It comes naturally. I always give people the benefit of the doubt. However, I'm not a sucker who is willing to get in to a time wasting debate with a person who has chosen to experiment with 'being respectful' when it is clear that they are full of resentment for those who disagree.

You could read every one of my posts (public and private) and even my dialogues face to face and you will discover me being me every time. When I catch myself talking with somebody who is trying on a personality like a disposable mask, I feel released from any time investment that involves building relationships. I try hard to only build relationships with real people.

Kevin, again, you haven't offended me, you have merely exposed yourself. Your childish comment about my Lord carries no merit. It was a futile display of ignorance. Those distortions for why you were banned are also exposures of your general attitude and your actual inability to respect those who share your DNA. I'm exhorting you to choose the real Kevin and stick with that personality long enough to pursue truth rather than play games.

QUOTE(pauliexcluded @ Feb 1 2010, 10:44 PM)
However the behavior on this forum is very detrimental to the christian faith and frankly just plain mean.


This comment is laughable when considering the venom that is spewed at a forum that you consider your living room.

Seriously, dude, get your own house in order.


--------------------
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"QUOTE(pauliexcluded @ Feb 1 2010, 08:51 PM)
QUOTE("kwlyon")
They accused me of everything shy of raping the governor. I was put in the "cooler" and told that I needed to stop making them feel stupid...no joke that is pretty much what the admin said. It was a fascinating ride to say the least. I think I will make an account in a couple months but mark myself (christian/young earth creationist) and do essentially the same thing and see what happens! It will be amusing to behold I am sure.
Kevin

Oh...and this was NOT dishonest. This is EXACTLY what happened. I mean look at the paper trail here! If I have misunderstood the intention of your admin by all means explain his actions to me. I am very interested in understanding. Of course I don't actually intend to show back up here incognito...that would be deceitful and this comment is what you call "shooting the bull". However answer me this...how would I have been received if I was a YEC? I don't honestly know...but I have my suspicions. I am welling to bet that if a CREATIONIST physicist showed up on your forum you would be all over it.

Kevin"


In your heart of hearts, you know that was a blatant overblown and dishonest rant of a performance that was intentionally playing directly into the constituency of that forum Kevin. One has only to read some of the venomous posts, and be privy to all the conversations here.

You’re not the first to play that game, and you won’t be the last to attempt it here (even as others from your forum are attempting it as well).




--------------------

Feb 2 2010, 08:02 AM
Post #32
pauliexcluded
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"QUOTE(Adam Nagy @ Feb 2 2010, 03:53 AM)
You failed yourself.
It comes naturally. I always give people the benefit of the doubt. However, I'm not a sucker who is willing to get in to a time wasting debate with a person who has chosen to experiment with 'being respectful' when it is clear that they are full of resentment for those who disagree.

You could read every one of my posts (public and private) and even my dialogues face to face and you will discover me being me every time. When I catch myself talking with somebody who is trying on a personality like a disposable mask, I feel released from any time investment that involves building relationships. I try hard to only build relationships with real people.

Kevin, again, you haven't offended me, you have merely exposed yourself. Your childish comment about my Lord carries no merit. It was a futile display of ignorance. Those distortions for why you were banned are also exposures of your general attitude and your actual inability to respect those who share your DNA. I'm exhorting you to choose the real Kevin and stick with that personality long enough to pursue truth rather than play games.
This comment is laughable when considering the venom that is spewed at a forum that you consider your living room.

Seriously, dude, get your own house in order."




Adam,

I have not failed myself. I don't have to deny reality to feel comfortable with the world I live in. It is certainly you I have failed. And though you cannot appreciate it, I apologize. Have I not shown you respect? You have been rather kind and decent and, in case you have failed to notice, I have returned this respect. I challenge you to think about that comment that has so offended you and ask yourself why I would post such a thing. What do you think was the point I was trying to make. Yes, it was an angry vent, however there was substance to it. I spew no venom towards the christian faith...only it's followers who choose a path of blindness and belligerence. I suspected that you were looking for something about which to be offended...that is, in part, why I directed you to our forum. None the less, I regret that it has given you cause to once again close your eyes. Feel free to drop a line if you need anything. I really would be glad to chat with you any time about anything. It has been a pleasure.

Kevin

Ron,

No, I do not know any such thing....and you are very much aware that this is, though certainly a tad hyperbolic as it is obviously intended to be, absolutely the truth. Would you like a quick play by play? I signed up for this forum. I was accepted and given rights to post. I corrected a couple comments and misconceptions regarding the conservation of angular momentum. I corrected an incorrect assertion that Boyel's law has something to do with gravitation. I then PM'd a couple people in hopes of establishing some "friends" on the forum and introduced myself by offering my input as a physics "fact checker" of sorts. For this horrifically inappropriate behavior I was confined immediately to the cooler and received a message along the lines of this:

Who do you think you are?
Do you pay the fee's for this forum?
I guess we are all just to stupid to run this forum?
I guess we should all just bow down the the mighty physicist?

Of course I am paraphrasing but you have to be mighty deluded not to be taken aback by such a reaction. And yes, this is certainly not the first time I have been treated horribly by "christians". Thankfully I am astute enough, and blessed with enough christian friends, to know that this behavior is not inherent to christianity. But I won't tell you it was not hurtful...and it certainly angered me. I do not condone people coming into your "living room" and spewing venom in your direction...even in response to such behavior. However I would like you to put some thought into it...why do you think so many do? It seems that so many feel that if they are being hated they must be doing the will of their god...and Jesus was right....if you are standing up for right you will often be the target of much venom. However you can also make yourself a target by simply being a belligerent jerk. Just something to think on. Ron, you also have been decent in our exchanges. As I take my leave, I hope you will think on these. We are not all out to get you.

Kevin


Feb 2 2010, 08:14 AM
Post #33
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Here we go with the guilt trips .


--------------------
Feb 2 2010, 08:18 AM
Post #34
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"QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Feb 2 2010, 08:14 AM)
Here we go with the guilt trips " .


You are a jerk. I have nothing to say to you. And yes...you SHOULD feel guilty. And this is what you call kindness and respect... something you would not recognize.

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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by Doug »

kwlyon wrote:It forced me to realize that they were not the spawn of satan.
DOUG
Right. I was adopted...
"We could have done something important Max. We could have fought child abuse or Republicans!" --Oona Hart (played by Victoria Foyt), in the 1995 movie "Last Summer in the Hamptons."
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

Later I realized that, though they may be the adopted children of the Morning Star, he was actually on our side and a right decent fella....
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

QUOTE(pauliexcluded @ Feb 2 2010, 10:18 AM)
You are a jerk. I have nothing to say to you. And yes...you SHOULD feel guilty. And this is what you call kindness and respect... something you would not recognize.

kevin


It's called tough love, Kevin. You were exposed and you can't handle the view when the mirror is placed in front of your face. I hope you change. I've been praying for you.

Adam


--------------------

Feb 2 2010, 06:54 PM
Post #36
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"QUOTE(Adam Nagy @ Feb 2 2010, 04:01 PM)
It's called tough love, Kevin. You were exposed and you can't handle the view when the mirror is placed in front of your face. I hope you change. I've been praying for you.

Adam"


I very much recognize my wrongdoing in this matter. I have apologized and, though that does not undo it, it is all we can ever do. And if you call that love my friend...I would hope you understand what love is one day. I am quite certain, however, that you know better. I do appreciate your prayers--they are a sign that you have concern and compassion for those you disagree with. Even those who offend your values though angry inappropriate comments;) I would recommend putting more effort into trying to understand those who offend you...and why they offend you. If you are ever in my neck of the woods...look me up. I will buy you a cup of coffee and we can chat. As for your admin, he may do likewise, but he can buy his own coffee! It has been a pleasure Adam.

Kevin
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by RobertMadewell »

I do appreciate your prayers--they are a sign that you have concern and compassion for those you disagree with.
The offer of prayer may be or may not be a sign of concern. I have seen the phrase I'll pray for you thrown around gratuitously. In my family, the phrase is usually given to me when they think something is wrong with me. Lately, that's about all they say to me. Actual prayer is not usually required. The phrase is supposed to either make it better or make you feel guilty. It's a very passive-agressive thing to say, anymore. It's kinda of like saying How can I help you without actually intending to do anything to help. Since prayer works about as good as wishing on Sirius, that's about all it amounts to.

Those guys are still harping at me over there. I'm glad I intentionally forgot my password, because, I can't help myself and It'd drag on and on. Here's what Ron said,
I understand Robert, after seeing how your other forum is run, the shoe on the other foot isn't as comfortable as you thought it would be.
All I can say to that is, "Huh?"

He's a genius or what?
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by Doug »

I understand Robert, after seeing how your other forum is run, the shoe on the other foot isn't as comfortable as you thought it would be.
DOUG
More to the point, the evangelicals hate that feet are either in their mouths or kicking their rear ends. Tell them to come to our forum and defend their view of reality. Tell them we promise not to kick them off the forum because of what they say.
"We could have done something important Max. We could have fought child abuse or Republicans!" --Oona Hart (played by Victoria Foyt), in the 1995 movie "Last Summer in the Hamptons."
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

I am very much aware that this is ABSOLUTELY a passive aggressive maneuver. I am intentionally "being the bigger man" by giving the benefit of the doubt. I hope they learn something from my example. I also apologized for offending them. Though I am sorry that I caused them offense, I know that they were only offended by my comment because they were LOOKING for something to offend them. I graciously provided it. That comment did have a very pertinent point. It was, perhaps, lost on them.

They will never stop harping on you...I told you, when someone is actually respectful in response to their extreme disrespect, it infuriate them as it becomes difficult to make them out to be the bad guy. There is, believe it or not, a limit to how transparent they are comfortable being--there is a limit to their capacity for transference. But yes...shoe on the other foot...um...how exactly? Darrel...did you block someone on here for being christian? Doug...how about you? How about our moderator/admin...?

Kevin
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

Doug wrote:
I understand Robert, after seeing how your other forum is run, the shoe on the other foot isn't as comfortable as you thought it would be.
DOUG
More to the point, the evangelicals hate that feet are either in their mouths or kicking their rear ends. Tell them to come to our forum and defend their view of reality. Tell them we promise not to kick them off the forum because of what they say.
Yea...cause they are going to be up for that. You feel free to invite them. Make an account (I think I am banned now) and invite them to a thread over here. I don't think they are likely to have the testicular fortitude. I promised to be "respectful" to them. Ahhh....if they come here that will make me cry.

Kevin
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by Doug »

kwlyon wrote: Yea...cause they are going to be up for that. You feel free to invite them. Make an account (I think I am banned now) and invite them to a thread over here.
DOUG
Too much trouble. I'm busy.
kwlyon wrote:I don't think they are likely to have the testicular fortitude. I promised to be "respectful" to them. Ahhh....if they come here that will make me cry.
DOUG
Of course they wouldn't come. They know deep down they'd get their butts kicked in honest, open debate. That's why they don't have honest, open debate. After all, why else would they make sure that they are not the ones that "take the high road"?

I think the only person we've ever kicked off the forum was Hogeye, and that was not because we didn't like what he said (we didn't, since it was for the most part unsupported nonsense). He was thrown off this list because he wouldn't allow discussions about anything other than his favorite topics: marijuana, anarchy, and the alleged global warming hoax (mostly the latter two). EVERY topic we started ended up being hijacked by him to become a thread on one of these. That was disrupting the board.
"We could have done something important Max. We could have fought child abuse or Republicans!" --Oona Hart (played by Victoria Foyt), in the 1995 movie "Last Summer in the Hamptons."
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by RobertMadewell »

I am still amazed that I was accused of evangelizing UU, when all I did was mention that my wife goes to a UU congregation and that I sometimes acompany her. I think I said that the UU didn't care about dogma, but that was as far as I went. This was in a short introductory essay about myself. All I was doing was telling them about myself and establishing a little background. That was my only intention. I even posted in a section for introducing yourself.

I was willing to let it go, actually. But, I started reading the other threads and I saw people being ridiculed and accused of logical falliousies that weren't even being committed. One particular member accuses people of equivocation, but appearantly does not know what it is. Also, logical fallousies are actually against the rules. You can be kicked off the forum for equivocating! I think people should tear into logical fallousies when they are committed, but actually throwing someone off of a board for it? That's plain silly. Not to meantion all the logical fallousies that are committed by the creationist camp. Straw men come to mind.

Here's the documented rules:
The following are disallowed:

Profanity, obscenity

Advertising

Posting copyrighted material without permission.

Use of unauthorized personal correspondence (i.e. email or Private Message)

Clear cases of misrepresentation, quoting out of context, or unsubstantiated hearsay.

Equivocation, particularly regarding what "evolution" means. It is intellectually dishonest to claim that micro-evolution (something everyone agrees occurs) proves that all life originates from a common ancestor.

Ad hominem attacks -- discussions about someone's credentials or character are disallowed unless the exchange necessitates a clear need to point out a problem with a source of the information. Such exceptions shall be few and brief.

Negative one-liner responses to a post, such as "that's a bunch of baloney".

Pointless chatter -- though there is some leeway for occasional friendly banter or brief humor in good taste.

Nagging or complaints that an opponent is not responding -- We are all busy, and there is no requirement to respond.

Needless repetition.

Trolling -- questions or arguments that are insincere or for creating a spectacle. While posting under a pseudonym is allowed, it makes you more likely to be taken for a troll, so weigh this into your behavior.

Complaining about board moderation.

Registering under more than one pseudonym (also called a "sock-puppet").
I colored the Logical fallousies in red. IMO, when someone commits a logical fallousy it is up to the commenters to set it straight. Again, I don't think the mod knows what equivocation is. Equivocation is using two different definitions of the same word or concept in the same context. At least that's how I understand it. It's not disagreeing with someone on a definition, like they seem to think.

Well, I really decided to leave the board when I saw that they have a section for discussing evangelizing techniques. That actually made me mad. I was accused and chided for meantioning another denomination, yet the theists on the baord are allowed to do it and discuss better ways of doing it. That is a double standard and I will not be their monkey, as kwlyon so elloquaintly put.
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by kwlyon »

Doug, It is absolutely not worth your time! I was board a LONG time ago...but I need closure. They just wouldn't get around to banning me so long as I was responding. I think they needed the last word. At any rate I am most certainly banned now:) I have never felt so good about being kicked out of something....it's like getting kicked out of the looser club!

Robert,

Yes, they have no idea what equivocation means...and they are guilty of breaking EVERY one of their "rulz"...however those rules seem to only apply to non-christians. That really was a unique experience. On reflection, however, I think I know why I felt compelled to be nice...I keep forgetting that the people I was conversing with were actually OLDER than me! It is hard to imagine an adult behaving in such a fashion. I guess my perspective is skewed seeing as how I have very little socialization outside of the university. I honestly have not run into such belligerence from christians before...well...other than moses and a couple other such individuals. Never underestimate the power cognitive dissonance. They justified it as "tough love"....wow....how about I just kick you in the sac for no reason...you know...tough love.

Kevin
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Re: Evolution FTailes!

Post by Savonarola »

kwlyon wrote:Darrel...did you block someone on here for being christian? Doug...how about you? How about our moderator/admin...?
Doug wrote:I think the only person we've ever kicked off the forum was Hogeye, and that was not because we didn't like what he said (we didn't, since it was for the most part unsupported nonsense). He was thrown off this list because he wouldn't allow discussions about anything other than his favorite topics: marijuana, anarchy, and the alleged global warming hoax (mostly the latter two). EVERY topic we started ended up being hijacked by him to become a thread on one of these. That was disrupting the board.
Actually, Hogeye fell victim to our three-strike rule, and that was after my bending over backward to accommodate his behavior, put out fires, and give constructive criticism. Hogeye probably had about seven "countable" strikes before the official third strike was called. The rules that were violated are posted in the General Information forum; notice that none of the rules are even remotely like, "Agree with me," "don't make me mad," or "maintain the status quo."

If memory serves, I deleted two of Hogeye's posts because one contained privileged information and the other contained a link to pornography. (It may be that I just removed the link -- it's been too long for me to remember with high certainty.) None of his other posts have been removed, even after his banning. The argument that we have tried to silence dissenters would fall flat just by pointing to the multitude of his posts remaining on the forum and our behavior in debating him instead of censoring him.

The only other bans that we've instituted are "users" (bots) that spam advertisements and pornography; as shown by the Hogeye example, porn posted by real people just gets deleting without eliciting an instantaneous ban, but it's a strike if we determine that it was done purposely.
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