Robert's Creation Fairytales Dump
Jan 31 2010, 09:40 PM Post #1
RobertMadewell
Newcomer
Joined: Jan 31st, 2010
Posts: 4
Group: Members
Age: 41
no affiliation
Atheist
Arkansas
Hey guys, I was directed to this forum by a friend.
I am what you might call an agnostic atheist. Which is to say that while I acknowledge the possibility that God exists, I really don't believe he does or that if there is a God he probably isn't what is described by theists. I'm an atheist by doubt rather than by faith. However, I prefer to be called a non-theist, but that option was not available when I registered and I couldn't click on both atheist and agnostic.
I think many get into too many arguments on the finer points of non-theism. Non-theism is a personal thing to me, so I probably do differ with other non-theists with regard to some issues.
I am the son of an IFCA minister from south west Missouri. I was indoctrinated as a fundamentalist. I was taught a form of creationism known as Gap Creationism, which is only slightly different than Young Earth Creationism. I think IFCA is pretty much YEC anymore. Currently, I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
Are there any gap creationists on this forum? I'd love to discuss some of the finer points of Gap vs. YEC.
My de-conversion started when I read the bible as an excercise to better know God through his word. I started at the beginning and read it cover to cover. What I found was appalling to me. Some of the things that God commands people to do in the OT (a few in the NT too) are not things that I would call moral or divinely inspired. (see Deut 21:18-21) Of course, my Dad explained to me that that was a different time and that the people were under the law. That was just not a good enough answer to me. To me, brutality is brutality, no matter when it was practised. I didn't go completely non-theistic at that time. It happened in stages and eventually I realized that I just didn't believe anymore. For me to pretend that I did would have been dishonest to myself and everyone around me. I still attend church at a local Unitarian Universalist Church with my wife, sometimes. They don't care whether you are a theist or not and the social aspect of church is the same as any other church sans dogma.
My science strong point is Astronomy. I am also fairly familiar with the Bible. I also have read The Book of Mormon and The Quran since my de-conversion. I also enjoy pondering the classical arguments for the existence of God. IF anyone wants me to participate in a discussion, message me to let me know what topic you have posted at. For the time being, I'll check this board every day.
Thanks for accepting me into the membership and maybe we can all learn from each other to better understand the weird universe we have found ourselves in. A monumental project to be sure.
Jan 31 2010, 10:10 PM Post #2
ikester7579
Super Moderator
Joined: Mar 18th, 2005
From: Florida
Posts: 8,987
Group: Super Mod1
Age: 46
Christian
Young Earth Creationist
formerly admin 3
Hi and welcome to the forum.
QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
Hey guys, I was directed to this forum by a friend.
We get many members who say this.
QUOTE
I am what you might call an agnostic atheist. Which is to say that while I acknowledge the possibility that God exists, I really don't believe he does or that if there is a God he probably isn't what is described by theists. I prefer to be called a non-theist, but that option was not available when I registered and I couldn't click on both atheist and agnostic.
You can explain how you believe in your sig.
QUOTE
I think many get into too many arguments on the finer points of non-theism. Non-theism is a personal thing to me, so I probably do differ with other non-theists with regard to some issues.
There are many levels of belief as there are disbelief.
QUOTE
I am the son of an IFCA minister from south west Missouri. I was indoctrinated as a fundamentalist. I was taught a form of creationism known as Gap Creationism, which is only slightly different than Young Earth Creationism. I think IFCA is pretty much YEC anymore.
Are there any gap creationists on this forum? I'd love to discuss some of the finer points of Gap vs. YEC.
Gap creation is pretty much dead because it does not hold much water being reconffirmed anywhere in scripture. But if you want to debate it, I know enough about it to debate it.
QUOTE
My de-conversion started when I read the bible as an excercise to better know God through his word. I started at the beginning and read it cover to cover. What I found was appalling to me. Some of the things that God commands people to do in the OT (a few in the NT too) are not things that I would call moral or divinely inspired. (see Deut 21:18-21) Of course, my Dad explained to me that that was a different time and that the people were under the law. That was just not a good enough answer to me. To me, brutality is brutality, no matter when it was practised. I didn't go completely non-theistic at that time. It happened in stages and eventually I realized that I just didn't believe anymore. For me to pretend that I did would have been dishonest to myself and everyone around me. I still attend church at a local Unitarian Universalist Church with my wife, sometimes. They don't care whether you are a theist or not and the social aspect of church is the same as any other church sans dogma.
People who are truly saved and without doubt already in their hearts do not allow such things to make them stray away from salvation. You would have enough faith to pray and wait until God shows you why, instead of basing your de-conversion on such a small tidbit.
And we do not allow "universalism" to be "promoted" here. You can debate it though. Promote is where you try to put something into positive light as to convert others to it (evangelize). Or even up to PMing others with the same intent. Evangelize would be a better word to use as to what we would frown upon concerning universalism.
QUOTE
My science strong point is Astronomy. I am also fairly knowledgable of the Bible. I also have read The Book of Mormon and The Quran since my de-conversion. I also enjoy pondering the classical arguments for the existence of God. IF anyone wants me to participate in a discussion, message me to let me know what topic you have posted at. For the time being, I'll check this board every day.
Thanks for accepting me into the membership and maybe we can all learn from each other to better understand the weird universe we have found ourselves in. A monumental project to be sure.
If you read my sig it has important info on how the forum program works and how things can be set up to make your time here easier and more productive. Pay attention to the quote box limit. The quote limit is written in code and is not an option we can change. We have to abide by this as well. Which the limit is 10 quote boxes per post. There are ways around this as shown in my sig.
--------------------
____________________________
Experience is a dear teacher, and some fools will learn no other way.
So much deception to prove a true fact? Man, that's a oxymoron if I ever heard one.
anticreationist debate tactics.
Pat two: Debate tactics
Types of creation.
Forum info to help out members:
1) 10 quote boxes are allowed per post. We cannot change it because it's not an option, so we have to abide by this also.
2) If you are posting more than 10 total quote boxes, you can use the "code" boxes for all quotes over 10. Code box works just like quote box. The only difference between code boxes and quote boxes are 2 things. The person you quote will not appear at the top. And BB codes are disabled (bold lettering, colors etc...) But everything else is the same.
3) To keep up with everywhere you are debating in this forum. Just click on your own name, then click "find members posts". This will list all of your posts in backward order. Newest to oldest. And from that page you can go to all your posts and never miss responding to those you are debating.
4) At the top of each thread, in the area where you post. You have an option to "track this topic". When you click on this link you can select many options of how you would like to be notified when someone responds to a topic (e-mail etc...). In this way if you have your own topic, or well involved in someone elses. You can know through e-mails when someone responds so you don't have to visit the forum to find out.
This also goes for a whole forum section. If you debate quite frequently in one forums section, and would like to be notified when someone responds. You can also subscribe to a whole forum section by clicking on subscribe while in that section.
5) There are also a selection of different forum views. Above the link where it says: track this topic. You will see outline, standard, and linear. The forum default is standard. You can click on the other views to see what they look like.
Music:
Phil Driscoll
Crystal Lewis
Third day
The Martins
Jan 31 2010, 11:36 PM Post #3
RobertMadewell
Newcomer
Joined: Jan 31st, 2010
Posts: 4
Group: Members
Age: 41
no affiliation
Atheist
Arkansas
I think I was introducing myself and giving a little background about myself. I assure you that that was my only intention. I really have no interest in promoting UU or even non-theism. I only mentioned it to establish that I occasionally do attend a 'church'. I suppose I could've left that out. I am actually not a UU. My wife is. I'm sorry, if that was out of line.
QUOTE
People who are truly saved and without doubt already in their hearts do not allow such things to make them stray away from salvation. You would have enough faith to pray and wait until God shows you why, instead of basing your de-conversion on such a small tidbit.
I would love to discuss that with you. Perhaps, one of us could start a thread in a more appropriate section. I do want to abide by your rules since they seem to be so important to you.
Feb 1 2010, 02:23 AM Post #4
AFJ
Member
Joined: Aug 9th, 2009
Posts: 335
Group: Veteran Member
Age: 47
Christian
Young Earth Creationist
Baton Rouge, LA
QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Jan 31 2010, 09:40 PM)
Hey guys, I was directed to this forum by a friend.
I am what you might call an agnostic atheist. Which is to say that while I acknowledge the possibility that God exists, I really don't believe he does or that if there is a God he probably isn't what is described by theists. I'm an atheist by doubt rather than by faith. However, I prefer to be called a non-theist, but that option was not available when I registered and I couldn't click on both atheist and agnostic.
I think many get into too many arguments on the finer points of non-theism. Non-theism is a personal thing to me, so I probably do differ with other non-theists with regard to some issues.
I am the son of an IFCA minister from south west Missouri. I was indoctrinated as a fundamentalist. I was taught a form of creationism known as Gap Creationism, which is only slightly different than Young Earth Creationism. I think IFCA is pretty much YEC anymore. Currently, I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
Are there any gap creationists on this forum? I'd love to discuss some of the finer points of Gap vs. YEC.
My de-conversion started when I read the bible as an excercise to better know God through his word. I started at the beginning and read it cover to cover. What I found was appalling to me. Some of the things that God commands people to do in the OT (a few in the NT too) are not things that I would call moral or divinely inspired. (see Deut 21:18-21) Of course, my Dad explained to me that that was a different time and that the people were under the law. That was just not a good enough answer to me. To me, brutality is brutality, no matter when it was practised. I didn't go completely non-theistic at that time. It happened in stages and eventually I realized that I just didn't believe anymore. For me to pretend that I did would have been dishonest to myself and everyone around me. I still attend church at a local Unitarian Universalist Church with my wife, sometimes. They don't care whether you are a theist or not and the social aspect of church is the same as any other church sans dogma.
My science strong point is Astronomy. I am also fairly familiar with the Bible. I also have read The Book of Mormon and The Quran since my de-conversion. I also enjoy pondering the classical arguments for the existence of God. IF anyone wants me to participate in a discussion, message me to let me know what topic you have posted at. For the time being, I'll check this board every day.
Thanks for accepting me into the membership and maybe we can all learn from each other to better understand the weird universe we have found ourselves in. A monumental project to be sure.
Hi Robert,
Welcome. I used to believe the gap theory--if that is the same thing. It's been a long time since I studied the scriptures on it though. In a nutshell it teaches the reason the earth is old is because Lucifer (Satan) in a previous age ruled this planet. When he fell he was cast to the earth and the earth was destroyed. What we see in Gen. 1:2--the earth without form and void, covered with water--is a result of this destruction. The creation story is the start of a new age of man. Satan is ruled by jealousy of man who basically has been given lordship over his old jurisdiction.
I have always leaned toward literalism, and in the power of God. The reason being I have had the opportunity to see true faith at work, the power of God changing me--and feeling it, and things come to pass that were predicted by not only scripture, but by the impressions of those who believe it wholeheartedly. Be blessed. AFJ
Feb 1 2010, 04:09 AM Post #5
ikester7579
Super Moderator
Joined: Mar 18th, 2005
From: Florida
Posts: 8,987
Group: Super Mod1
Age: 46
Christian
Young Earth Creationist
formerly admin 3
QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 02:36 AM)
I think I was introducing myself and giving a little background about myself. I assure you that that was my only intention. I really have no interest in promoting UU or even non-theism. I only mentioned it to establish that I occasionally do attend a 'church'. I suppose I could've left that out. I am actually not a UU. My wife is. I'm sorry, if that was out of line.I would love to discuss that with you. Perhaps, one of us could start a thread in a more appropriate section. I do want to abide by your rules since they seem to be so important to you.
Well I try to head off trouble before it begins. Just allowing it to happen and having to warn members is not my cup of tea.
As far as what you said I have no problem with it. It was good that you relayed the information. But not knowing you I did not know your intentions. We have had people come in here and try to evangelize for universalism before. I just wanted to head off trouble before it started.
You can start a thread in the general conversation area in the Christian section on what I said if you like. I can address it there. People complained the last time I addressed anything in this section.
--------------------
____________________________
Experience is a dear teacher, and some fools will learn no other way.
So much deception to prove a true fact? Man, that's a oxymoron if I ever heard one.
anticreationist debate tactics.
Pat two: Debate tactics
Types of creation.
Forum info to help out members:
1) 10 quote boxes are allowed per post. We cannot change it because it's not an option, so we have to abide by this also.
2) If you are posting more than 10 total quote boxes, you can use the "code" boxes for all quotes over 10. Code box works just like quote box. The only difference between code boxes and quote boxes are 2 things. The person you quote will not appear at the top. And BB codes are disabled (bold lettering, colors etc...) But everything else is the same.
3) To keep up with everywhere you are debating in this forum. Just click on your own name, then click "find members posts". This will list all of your posts in backward order. Newest to oldest. And from that page you can go to all your posts and never miss responding to those you are debating.
4) At the top of each thread, in the area where you post. You have an option to "track this topic". When you click on this link you can select many options of how you would like to be notified when someone responds to a topic (e-mail etc...). In this way if you have your own topic, or well involved in someone elses. You can know through e-mails when someone responds so you don't have to visit the forum to find out.
This also goes for a whole forum section. If you debate quite frequently in one forums section, and would like to be notified when someone responds. You can also subscribe to a whole forum section by clicking on subscribe while in that section.
5) There are also a selection of different forum views. Above the link where it says: track this topic. You will see outline, standard, and linear. The forum default is standard. You can click on the other views to see what they look like.
Music:
Phil Driscoll
Crystal Lewis
Third day
The Martins
Feb 1 2010, 06:21 AM Post #6
Ron
1/2 a Centurion
Joined: May 9th, 2009
Posts: 2,300
Group: Moderator
Age: 50
Christian
Creationist
Weedville, PA
QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
Hey guys, I was directed to this forum by a friend.
Hello Robert, and welcome to the forum.
QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
I am what you might call an agnostic atheist.
Not to be argumentative, but most professing atheists are actually practicing agnostics (and you’ll find none that will admit it). There are very few true atheists anymore because it is so hard to defend a worldview that is basically foundationally bereft.
You can see more of what I’m talking about here:
http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum ... =3001&st=0
Anyway, what you’ll find is that both statements (when cemented together) in an actual oxymoron.
QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
Which is to say that while I acknowledge the possibility that God exists, I really don't believe he does or that if there is a God he probably isn't what is described by theists.
And this is the rub isn’t it… If God does actually exist, to remain an atheist (or even an agnostic) is a precarious razor to stand on indeed. And to claim that He (God) doesn’t exist, is a claim about God, is it not? And to make such a claim is based on faith, is it not?
Much to think about, and decide upon in such a short life.
QUOTE(RobertMadewell @ Feb 1 2010, 12:40 AM)
I'm an atheist by doubt rather than by faith. However, I prefer to be called a non-theist, but that option was not available when I registered and I couldn't click on both atheist and agnostic.
An atheist by doubt is still based on faith Robert. Which is still a theistic approach, and is still a theistic stance.
--------------------
Click on either picture for music or videos
b00tleg: I'm in such denial about my religion, that I even deny the denial about my denial. And then I turn around make fun of everyone else's religion.
Feb 1 2010, 07:27 AM Post #7
Mankind
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 7th, 2009
Posts: 82
Group: Advanced member
Age: 49
Christian
Young Earth Creationist
Southeast
Welcome to the forum. Do you sometimes ask yourself why does God allow bad things to happen? Well God stopped bad things from happening by being "brutal" if you will, or I would replace it with "just". Is it brutal to kill someone in self-defense or self-defense of your family or is it just? The earth was filled with violence before the flood, was it brutal to stop that? God's chosen people were to bring forth a savior for all of mankind, was it brutal to make sure that happened?
Feb 1 2010, 09:20 AM Post #8
Scanman
Member
Joined: Dec 16th, 2009
Posts: 251
Group: Veteran Member
Age: 49
Christian
Theistic Evolutionist
West Virginia
QUOTE(Mankind @ Feb 1 2010, 10:27 AM)
Welcome to the forum. Do you sometimes ask yourself why does God allow bad things to happen? Well God stopped bad things from happening by being "brutal" if you will, or I would replace it with "just". Is it brutal to kill someone in self-defense or self-defense of your family or is it just? The earth was filled with violence before the flood, was it brutal to stop that? God's chosen people were to bring forth a savior for all of mankind, was it brutal to make sure that happened?
The end justifies the means?
God commanded that women and children be slaughtered...I think that is what he referring to.
"They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." Josh 6:21
"...all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai." Josh 8:24,25
"Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it. They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it." Josh 10:36,37
This scenario of 'leave no one breathing' is continued, city after city after city.
I believe that later on, God allowed them to take the women and children as slaves.
Anyone today would regard this as horrendous. It is one aspect of God's actions that I have difficulty defending (if indeed, God actually commanded these things)
WWJD
Somehow I can't picture him running through the cities impaling women and children with his sword.
Peace
Feb 1 2010, 10:23 AM Post #9
RobertMadewell
Newcomer
Joined: Jan 31st, 2010
Posts: 4
Group: Members
Age: 41
no affiliation
Atheist
Arkansas
QUOTE
Anyway, what you’ll find is that both statements (when cemented together) in an actual oxymoron.
From Wiktionary
Atheism:
1. Absence of, or rejection of, belief in the existence of a god or gods.
2. The stance that a deity or deities do not exist.
Agnostic:
1. The view that absolute truth or ultimate certainty is unattainable, especially regarding knowledge not based on experience or perceivable phenomena.
2. The view that the existence of God or of all deities is unknown, unknowable, unproven, or unprovable.
3. Doubt, uncertainty, or scepticism regarding the existence of a God or of all deities.
For atheism, I was using #2. For agnosticism, I was using #3 (#2 is also applicable). I don't see how those two are mutally exclusive.
I'm sure that you do not believe in Ganesha, so I'll use him as an example. That way you might be able to get past the prejudice of having to believe in your god against all uncertainty. For example, I can be also be agnostic-atheistic concerning the existance of Ganesha. I am skeptical that he is a real diety. The arguments for his existence fail to convince me. Because, I have no compelling reason to believe in Ganesha, I can take the stand that he does not exist. Absolute certainty is not needed. I'm sure you believe that their is compelling evidence for your particular god, so go for it. Open a thread in a more appropriate section, message me and I'll be there.
QUOTE
An atheist by doubt is still based on faith Robert. Which is still a theistic approach, and is still a theistic stance.
Doubt equals faith? First I've heard of that.
More Wiktionary
Doubt:
1. To lack confidence in; to disbelieve, question, or suspect.
Faith:
2. (Christian theology) Belief and trust in the Christian God's promises revealed through Christ in the New Testament.
Theism:
1. belief in the existence of one or more deities.
2. belief in the existence of a personal creator God, especially by or through revelation.
(#2 is probably more applicable in our case)
Using those definitions, I tend to think that doubt is mutally exclusive of both faith and theism.
I post dictionary definitions to avoid equivocation.
QUOTE
Welcome to the forum. Do you sometimes ask yourself why does God allow bad things to happen?
Not much anymore. Because, I don't believe that God allows bad things to happen. Nature is brutal, but it is also morally neutral. Example: Haiti's disaster was not because God was punishing them, but because the capital city sits upon an active fault line.
QUOTE
Well God stopped bad things from happening by being "brutal" if you will, or I would replace it with "just". Is it brutal to kill someone in self-defense or self-defense of your family or is it just?
Yes, depending on circumstance. However, I don't think that Deut 21:18-21 is describing self-defense or defense of family. How is killing a son, self defense or defending your family? How about forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist?
QUOTE
The earth was filled with violence before the flood, was it brutal to stop that?
The only evidence you have is in the bible. I do not consider the bible accurate enough or authorative.
QUOTE
God's chosen people were to bring forth a savior for all of mankind, was it brutal to make sure that happened?
Again, I do not consider the bible authorative.
Feb 1 2010, 01:05 PM Post #10
RobertMadewell
Newcomer
Joined: Jan 31st, 2010
Posts: 4
Group: Members
Age: 41
no affiliation
Atheist
Arkansas
You know, after reading the other threads, I have reconsidered my membership in the forum. This forum, IMO is not a hospitable evironment for civilized discussion. It appears to me that the opposing veiw to the view of the administrators is not considered on equal footing.
This being the case, it is my opinion that no common ground can be realized in this forum, under such conditions. It also appears to me the the legalistic rules of this forum are designed to stifle any dissenting opinions from fundamentalist christianity.
This is not a place at all for civilized discussion because no civilized disscussion can be possible if you are constantly being threatened with censorship for practically anything. (I've seen this in the other threads.) I also suspect that the theist is given preferential treatment with regards to the forum rules.
So, ikester or Ron, if you have sufficient administrative priveleges, would one of you mind deleting my membership? I wouldn't even mind if you ban me from this forum as well, since I really do not intend to join again. I believe you have the right to run a forum under these conditions. I'm just asking for the right to not be a part of it.
Thank you,
Robert
Feb 1 2010, 03:49 PM Post #11
rico
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 4th, 2009
Posts: 26
Group: Members
Age: 29
no affiliation
Creationist
Iowa
Wish you well, it be fun to debate.
Feb 1 2010, 06:11 PM Post #12
Scanman
Member
Joined: Dec 16th, 2009
Posts: 251
Group: Veteran Member
Age: 49
Christian
Theistic Evolutionist
West Virginia
Robert, hang around awhile...atheist get a lot fairer shake then us backslidden Theistic Evolutionist.
Peace