Creationist Lecture in town

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kwlyon
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

Post by kwlyon »

Nick_F wrote:Kevin, are we carpooling? If so I thought we could meet up at the Harps on Crossover and Mission and head out from there. By the way, I talked to Robert today on the phone and he said you were a graduate student at the UofA. I'm also a student going through the biology curriculum. But anyway, just let me know what you decide either way.
Our phone number is 501 413 1011. This sounds like a plan. I will be willing to drive or pitch in for petrol...
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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Larry, Jenn, and I were there. I didn't see anyone I recognized.

I've got quite a bit of video footage. It's shaky because I did'nt have a pod and had to hold the camera about eyelevel for a good portion of 2 hours. I also got some good footage of the back of a balding man's head and a lady's big hair. I split it up in about 5 min. section so I can post some on Photobucket and tinypic. Our For some reason, my vids are bigger on disk than they should be. I'll have to look at my camera settings. They're in MOV format which is not my favorite. I am at this very moment, uploading a few clips to photobucket. Photobucket is cutting me off at 100M for each vid, so I'm not sure what parts are going through. I should soon have at least 3 sample clips up to give you guys a taste of what we had to go through.

After the sermon (it was not a lecture), he took only 5 questions. None of us at that time decided to ask any questions. Actually, Larry and I were a little afraid to. One of Harrison PD's finest walked by us, and we noticed that he was carrying. That made me a bit nervous and I have an anxiety disorder. When the church service was concluded, Larry and I were ready to make like a shepherd and get the flock out of there. Jenn was braver that I. She went up there. Introduced herself to Harrub and asked a few questions. (I'll encourage her to post her experience tomorrow.) She inspired me to be a bit braver by doing that. So, I asked a question about the cosmological argument that he used in his sermon. His answer was dismissive. I may write about it on my blog later.

While I was talking to Dr. Harrub, I noticed that there were at least 5 men surrounding us fairly closely. My anxiety level rose a bit at that moment, but I kept calm enough to make it out of the lecture hall without anyone calling an ambulance for me. (Xanax works!) I discovered later that these men are law enforcement officers, from a few different agencies, that attend the church that is hosting this conference. They were not harrassing us in any way, but I sure did feel intimidated. Later, I speculated that maybe they were watching our exchange, for Jenn's and my protection as well as Dr. Harrub's. If another attendee at the conference realized that we were atheists and became hostile towards us, we might have been thankful for those men. However, after I thought about the situation a little more, I came to a different conclusion. When we were leaving the men gathered around Dr. Harrub, like he had been threatened. If they were concerned about our safety, I would imagine that they would have kept an eye on us, until we got into Larry's car. Those men were afraid of two of the most harmless and peace loving people in Harrison, for the sole reason that we are atheists. I am certain of it.

Jenn wants to go back tommorrow. Larry's not so sure. I think I'll go, tomorrow. Actually, Harrub did invite us back and promised to give Jenn one of his books. I am willing to bet that the reception we receive tomorrow will be a bit different than what we received today.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

Post by RobertMadewell »

Hey, I got the first three of the clips up.

These clips are from a lecture called Atheism's Attack on America on December 4, 2009 at The Durand Center in Harrison, Arkansas. Dr. Brad Harrub Ph.D. was the speaker.

Click on images to watch the videos. I know the quality is poor, but I think I got his slides in pretty good.
(Be sure to take an anti-anxiety pill before watching.)

Sorry, I took these clips down because, I did not have permission personally from Harrub (I had permission from a church member, not Harrub) before I post them. Hope you enjoyed the sample, while it lasted. I'll upload all of them, possibly even some audio of the entire sermons, if I get an actual say so from Harrub.

PS: Clip 1 didn't turn out, but it was a clip of the pastor making an introduction speech, so I don't mind losing it.
Last edited by RobertMadewell on Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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RobertMadewell wrote:
Jenn wants to go back tommorrow. Larry's not so sure. I think I'll go, tomorrow. Actually, Harrub did invite us back and promised to give Jenn one of his books. I am willing to bet that the reception we receive tomorrow will be a bit different than what we received today.
Today is the day I would actually enjoy. This will be the "science" talk. Is anyone planning on going today? I actually had forgotten that this was going on for three days.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

Post by Nick_F »

Kevin, I've just tried calling you twice and it rings until voicemail.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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Yeah Kevin! I would sure love to have you there with us. We really needed your brain last night. The science is not my strongest point and it would be great to have someone a little more knowlegable about it than ourselves with us. I just talked to Nick and he wants to come, but could use a ride.

You'll be certain that I'm going to try to get some footage of some weaponage tonight. My batteries ran out at the end last night, so I'm getting them all charged up and I might keep a couple of fresh batteries in my pocket, just in case.

BTW, there are two sermons tonight! Oh Boy!

If you want to meet at my house, get there before 1800. (stardate: 20091205.18, I know I'm a nerd.)

Here's the directions to my house, again.
Google Map to My House!

I may have to remove the footage I have already, because I realized that I don't have official permission from Dr. Harrub. I asked an elder from the church who was also taking video of the service, and he said that it would be alright. I realize that that is not actual permission, so I'll have to try to ask Dr. Harrub tonight for permission to post footage on the net. If he say's no, I will upload nothing. As a matter of fact, I'm going to take down the three videos I have up at 1400, so if you want to watch it today, get it while it lasts.

Oh yeah, Jenn recorded the entire service on her MP3 player. I'll see if I can get it onto my hard drive and post it somewhere as well, if we get permission, of course. Does anyone know of a good free audio hosting site, that has a good embeddable player?
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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It's looking like I'm not going to be able to make this one. Anyone who does go, try to get some interesting footage. Certainly invite anyone who would like a science discussion to our board and I will be glad to chat with them.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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I'll have to say that I had a very interesting experience last night.

To be frank, I think Dr. Harrub is intentionally misrepresenting current science. He showed data on the slides that contradicted each other. He contradicted himself several times during both lectures. I am a bit disgusted with him, now.

He is a highly educated man and should know how to research his data to see if it agrees with itself. I now feel very sorry for the members of this church, because I feel that they have been swindled. It's also disturbing to think that this man is deliberatly lying to the church that spent a lot of money on this conference. He must think that these people are stupid and will believe anything. It shows contempt for the people who payed good money to have him there.

Hey! I scanned my notes and I'm cleaning them up and expanding them a bit. I should be able to get a good article or two out of this information. What the heck, I'll share my first page of notes. I'm still working on it and have a bit of researching to do. Maybe you guys can help me some too. I have a lot on my plate.

My first page of notes. PNG format

Well, I promised Harrub that I wouldn't post video or audio from his lecture on the net. He told me that he didn't want anyone posting it on YouTube and making fun of him. Waaaa! I don't think I need his permission, but I feel he deserved that courtesy. I know, life is hard. However, I did not promise that I would not bring some of the footage to a meeting. He did give me permission to transcribe any of our footage. That's kind of why I get the footage. So I can quote him word for word. Also, the church is going to have DVDs available soon. I know that some of you guys won't like me giving any money to this church, but trust me. There's a lot info in those lectures and it would be nice to be able to have that in a higher quality and more convenient format than what I got. I didn't get any video of today's lectures, but Jenn did record an mp3.

There actually was an incident of hostility toward me by a woman who has read my blog and recognized me. She apollogized after my sister-in-law confronted her about it. Because of that, I'm not going to mention anymore about it. All is forgiven and just maybe, she'll learn a lesson from that confrontation and see me and other non-theists instead as other human beings that are searching for truth, not as enemys. Maybe, we need confrontations like that to get people to realize just what they sound like.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

Post by Savonarola »

RobertMadewell wrote:To be frank, I think Dr. Harrub is intentionally misrepresenting current science. He showed data on the slides that contradicted each other. He contradicted himself several times during both lectures. I am a bit disgusted with him, now.
A creationist who lies, contradicts himself, in contemptible, and triggers a rationalist's gag reflex? Oh, right, that's what "creationist" means.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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Man I wish I could have been there...I was right not to go however...I am still neck deep in homework.

Do you have any information on this guy? Full Name... University...I would very much like to know from where he attained his doctoral degree and in what field. I would also not mind having a look at any of his materials. I have made a habit of taking the time to note corrections on such material and mail it back to the authors requesting corrections be made. Usually it gets a rather defensive response. I never understood why... At the very least you will know from them on that they have no excuse...they are intentionally deceiving their flock.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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Sav, I think that's a little harsh. The everyday church going, nine to five creationists are not on the whole dishonest. I'd even argue that because their religion praises honesty, that most of the sincere creationists would care that the current science is properly represented, instead of the megabytes of strawmen that we were presented with last night. Most of them are sincere in their beliefs and have that faith of theirs that what they are believing is the good thing to do. I would even place the ministers in my family in this category. Most believe the way they do because, they were raised that way. Not all though.

I've got to take Judy to work. I've got much more to say, so I'll be back.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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RobertMadewell wrote:He must think that these people are stupid and will believe anything.
DAR
Bingo.

My mom once invited me to a special lecture about evolution at a Kingdom Hall. The guy was going to talk about Behe and his mouse trap. He touched on it briefly, hadn't the foggiest idea of what he was talking about. It was ignorance from beginning to end. Elementary school level science. If you don't believe me, skim a Watchtower some time. When my mom introduced me to the dumb ass afterward (and he was an out of town expert shipped in, not just an in house local shit head) I didn't even have the heart to ask any questions (that would reveal he didn't know anything) or make any points. It would have just hurt the dear mum and it was entirely clear that neither he nor anyone there was the slightest bit interest in questioning things or truth. They are there to believe and have their wishes, faith, confirmed. That's it, nothing more. It's pathetic. It is, by and large, the human condition.

JW's, being the programmed robots that they are (far worse most churches, the only thing coming close would be other cults like Mormons, Christian Science or Church of Christ), do not allow open questions and interaction. When they do have Q & A (and they do a lot), the questions are in the Watchtower at the bottom of the page and the answers are clearly given in the paragraph. And they are mind numbingly stupid. This is the JW idea of Q & A. The questions and answers are provided by Watchtower headquarters. If you would ever like to see cult-like programming in action, you don't need to look to the Moonies, it's all right there are your local Kingdumb Hall.

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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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RobertMadewell wrote:Sav, I think that's a little harsh. The everyday church going, nine to five creationists are not on the whole dishonest. I'd even argue that because their religion praises honesty, that most of the sincere creationists would care that the current science is properly represented, instead of the megabytes of strawmen that we were presented with last night.
DOUG
That has not been my experience. Darrel is correct. They have their anti-science prejudices, and they want them confirmed whether or not the speaker has to lie to do it.

Here's my claim: No intelligent, informed, honest person in the 21st century can rationally deny the truth of evolution. If someone is denying that evolution is true, that person is either unintelligent, uninformed, dishonest, or irrational, or some combination thereof. Period.

That's it. It's like being a flat-Earther. I've seen the Flat-Earther writings. They don't know how to do research, they don't know what science is, and by and large they are extremely stupid, and by that I mean that they don't know how to retain or process information very well.

My experience with creationists for a couple of decades now indicates that the same is true of creationists except that we can add "dishonest" to the list, and in some cases they are not nearly as stupid as the flat-Earthers. But I have yet to meet an intelligent creationist. And there is a correlation between how intelligent they are and how dishonest they are, because you can't maintain the creationist/intelligent-design thesis if you are intelligent, informed, and honest. So the more intelligent ones tend to be more informed about rebuttals, and hence they tend to be more dishonest in that they ignore or misinform about these rebuttals.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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RobertMadewell wrote:Sav, I think that's a little harsh. The everyday church going, nine to five creationists are not on the whole dishonest.
DAR
I don't know. This is a constant battle to try and figure this out. When does ignorance become so blatant that you can no longer excuse it and not consider it voluntary dishonesty. I long challenged my dear mum to give me an example of a prophesy that the JW's have gotten right. So one day she said she had one.

Her example? Her BEST example?

In the eighties (and earlier) when the cold war was raging the JW's had long predicted that the USSR (the "King of the North" spoken of in Revelation) would defeat the US (the "King of the South"). She said this had been fulfilled, that Russia had won the cold war and this was because they had been able to drain the US's resources via the Vietnam war (yes, she said this after the wall came down).

What the Fuck?

This is so breathtakingly stupid I can't attribute this to anything but voluntary intellectual dishonesty. I pointed out that Russia was so poor they had some ships that had run out of gas and needed to be helped by some US ships that were nearby (this was years ago). I pointed out that US wealth and economy VASTLY exceeded that of Russia. At the time, the state (maybe it was the city) of New York collected more in tax revenue than Russia.

Creationist claims are easily on par in their falsity and blatant dishonesty with this claim that Russia won the cold war. It's beyond ridiculous and at some point I have to decide that this level of ignorance and stupidity is inexcusable and voluntary. These people are without excuse (kind of like Greybear). If they were interested in truth, and they are not, they could correct their errors in an afternoon. Not being interested in the truth of the matter and having their beliefs be in accord with truth/reality means they are intellectually dishonest. Course, figuring out when they have gone over this line, is rather subjective. No doubt my dear mother thinks she is being completely honest. She is so incredibly well practiced at adjusting her beliefs to be accord with what she WANTS to believe, rather than with reality (that's what churches are for) that she may be oblivious to her errors. But at some point, I think these people should be held accountable for having allowed their beliefs to stray so out of line with blatant reality.

D.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

Post by Savonarola »

RobertMadewell wrote:Sav, I think that's a little harsh.
Okay, I think you're right, because I was unclear. I'll try again:

A creationism lecturer who lies, contradicts himself, in contemptible, and triggers a rationalist's gag reflex? Oh, right, that's what "creationism lecturer" means.

Better? I think so. Whether it's the bald-faced dishonesty of a Pat Briney or someone who has allowed himself to be convinced that he knows what he's talking about until someone shows up to challenge him (like Kohlman), the contemptible lies and contradictions come out in droves every single time.

Consider the Kohlman's talk at the Jones Center. I had the creationists (as well as Kohlman himself) challenging me about the laws of thermodynamics. These are people whose only exposure to the laws of thermodynamics were what they'd read on creationist sites or been told by creationist speakers. I -- on the other hand -- teach those laws, and I teach them in more detail than any state educational requirement or advanced high school test demands. In particular, one older fellow continued to -- essentially -- insist that I was wrong because a true understanding of entropy fatally undercut his anti-evolution argument. It should be noted that this man was not a lecturer but your everyday creationist.

On day two of his seminar, Kohlman stated that science books claim that modern humans arose 3 million years ago. I asked him which textbook, and he said, "Holt." So I pulled out the Holt Biology textbook and showed that he was wrong. He immediately took a "break" and didn't resume the lecture. He challenged me on the edition of the book, as if this would have changed anything. But that's less telling than the way he did it: He was looking at the text, then his eyes suddenly lit up, and he excitedly said, "What edition is this?!" Clearly, Kohlman was looking for an excuse for being able to say that these "lies" were what children are being taught.

At Briney's seminar, he quoted an oft-cited argument about the improbability of a modern protein randomly assembling itself from amino acids. This "problem" is absolutely contrived: life appears to have originated with RNA as both genetic material and enzymatic actors. This is known as the RNA World hypothesis, so I asked Briney if he was aware of the RNA World hypothesis. His response was awfully snooty: He has a doctorate in microbiology, so of course he knows about the RNA World hypothesis (even though -- contrary to his claim -- he hadn't mentioned it once in his two day seminar). Accordingly, I asked why he'd use an argument that is based on the presumption that there is no mechanism for building the protein when science not only doesn't say that that's what happened but also gives an alternate explanation. He got pissed, with both of us talking over each other in a very uncivilized manner, and refused to explain why he'd do something so blatantly dishonest.

It's what they do. Period.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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Savonarola wrote:Consider the Kohlman's talk at the Jones Center...But that's less telling than the way he did it: He was looking at the text, then his eyes suddenly lit up, and he excitedly said, "What edition is this?!" Clearly, Kohlman was looking for an excuse for being able to say that these "lies" were what children are being taught.
DOUG
Right. And Kohlman was hilarious. He asked Sav whether the edition he had was the teacher's edition--as if the teacher's edition had the truth and the student editions had lies?! It would be even funnier if there weren't people in his audience so dull that they probably believed him.

Kohlman also claimed that dinosaurs and humans co-existed, and as evidence he cited the fact that people in the past described and depicted dragons and other dinosaur-like creatures (?) in detail. No one can describe things in such detail unless he or she has seen that thing, he claimed. So therefore, these animals coexisted with humans. And since they were probably dinosaurs, therefore dinosaurs coexisted with humans. So during the break I got a bag of Keebler crackers from the vending machine, and announced loudly to Kohlman upon my return that the designer of the bag must have seen an elf because the elf cartoon on the bag was finely detailed, so on Kohlman's reasoning, the artist must have seen an elf. Kohlman laughed half-heartedly and left the room, so the break was a little longer than I think he'd intended.

Image

By the way, Kohlman's argument contains a contradiction. If on the one hand, depictions of dinosaur-like creatures could only have been done in great detail if that animal had actually been seen, it would follow that the descriptions of those creatures should accurately match those of actual dinosaurs. But no dinosaur breathed fire, as dragons were said to do, so this contradicts the very premise of the argument itself, that the descriptions were too detailed to be simply made up. Since the descriptions of dragons do not match up with those of real dinosaurs, the premise is flawed.

By the way, Darrel Henschell has recently conceded that I was correct about Kohlman in one particular respect: Kohlman tried to deflect a lot of our criticism at the end of his session by meeting with us in small groups and promising (promising!) that he would meet with us at some later date to discuss these topics at length. I didn't believe that he was sincere, so I told him to his face that he was lying. I said it more than once. I knew that he would not call us or make any arrangements to meet with us before hell froze over. Darrel gave Kohlman the benefit of the doubt and said he thought Kohlman was being honest. Well, it's been many months now, and Darrel finally admitted just last month or so that Kohlman indeed was a bald-faced liar who promised to meet with us but had no intention of making good on that promise.

Now what was I saying about creationists and honesty..?
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

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It was interesting when on break I gave Kolman a quick roast of the "shrinking Sun" argument and he said that he "didn't use that one." I knew that he had so I opened his handout booklet to page 3, "Evidence from Space" and showed him that it was #1 on a list of 12. He made a funny face. This is what happens when you cut and paste from a Hovind type and don't read your own stuff carefully. And it's not like the shrinking sun argument is especially bad. It's not any worse than any of the others.

I thought the guy would call, he was so sincere. I am gullible in this regard. But I am also not sure how we left it. He immediately texted me his phone numbers so maybe he was thinking I was to call him. Still haven't (we were both leaving for long vacations right away). We'll see how that goes. If he turns me/us down, then he has definitely gone back on his word.

I will call him in the morning. It's written in my book, so it will happen.

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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

Post by Jenn79 »

I went with Robert to both lectures. After the first lecture which blamed Atheists for just about everything wrong with society, I quickly made my way to Brad Harrub to ask just one lone question. "Why does it have to be atheists who are responsible for these things? I mean, most writer's of hate speech laws and textbooks are mostly christian and proudly identify themselves as christians." His first answer was to deflect and ask me What I thought happened after death. I said we die, we're dead. Then asked my question again, and his reply was to say "Well are they true Christians?" He asked me to come back Saturday night and promised me a book. Which he gave me, but the christians flocked around him and kept me from even trying to ask a question. I waited another 15 minutes to get him to sign it and he signed it saying "Keep looking for your evidence" which I felt was sort of a snide dig at me and my disbelief without being mean.

Robert kept me from being spiraled down into Harrub's false truths by pointing out his mistakes and falsities.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

Post by Jenn79 »

I attended the lectures Friday & Saturday with Robert. I was turned off from his very first slide right up to his last slide to be honest. He started out flapping his gums about how congress passed a hate speech law which would prosecute preachers who speak out against homosexuality, transgenders, etc. Then it got worse and atheists were basically blamed for everything under the sun.

When it was over I darted over to Brad Harrub to ask one lone question. "How come the title is Atheists Attack on America and you bring all these things up when mostly its NOT atheists who are responsible for it?" He first simply asked me what I believed happened after death, which I said "we are dead." He tried to prod me into a testimony in which he could try to save me or something, I don't know. But I repeated my original question and he just said "Well are they True Christians if they do those things?"

I walked away after that. The whole time we were increasingly surrounded by security men with nasty looking guns. Frankly those guys with their guns scared me before the forum began, there were children running around while these men were openly flashing and stroking their guns. I don't like guns period, they weren't necessary. The first time I was identified as a threat...cool I guess.

The second night of lectures, if I had been alone, I might have been convinced, but Rob kept me grounded with his contradicting facts.

Good times.
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Re: Creationist Lecture in town

Post by kwlyon »

This is a little off topic...but just to be sure the facts are straight...NO ONE WON THE COLD WAR....The US just lost a little less than Russia. When Adults and/or entire societies act like children no one wins. The greatest tragedy of the cold war is that BOTH of our nations did not get overthrown by a third party thus teaching the rest of humanity a valuable lesson about why it is not conducive to continuation of our species to be paranoid douche bags. I guess I am a little sensitive on this topic as a scientist who is not going to live long enough to see humanity accomplish so many of the milestones I so very much want to see. I feel cheated. Imagine where we would be now if two superpowers such as the US and the USSR could have simply chosen to work together. We didn't necessarily have to like each other...just be respectful and civil to each other faces at least. I know this is asking allot, but if we don't figure it out soon we aren't going to have a future at all. Imagine where we would be without the dark ages! Sweet Zombie jesus we would have true form VR PORN! Now that is something we can all be pissed off about... Because those assholes would rather burn people at the stake than just agree to disagree, I will never get to sleep with virtual Elizabeth Hurley.
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