SteveMc wrote:You know, like "invariably", like you said about Till.
No, that excuse doesn't work. I will post below a careful examination that Doug put together on this:
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(i) Jesus' claim that his teachings were always in the synagogues and in the temple is false.
When Jesus states, "I always taught in synagogues and in the temple," does this mean that Jesus was claiming that his teaching, at all times, took place in the synagogue or he taught in the temple? It would seem so.
The word in John 18:20 being translated as "always" in the NKJ, and by almost everyone else, is the Greek word "pantoteh." This Greek word at John 18:20 it has Strong's Greek number 3842. (Strong's list is the standard, scholarly reference list of Hebrew and Greek words from the bible.) This word is a combination of "pas," meaning "all" or "every," and "hoteh," meaning "when" or "while." "All times," basically.
Here is what Strong's Greek dictionary says that this word, #3842, means in Greek:
Definition: 1) at all times, always, ever.
So in English, in Greek, and in all translations, the word here that Jesus uses in John 18:20 has the meaning of "at all times." All major translations use "always" at John 18:20 for Strong's #3842-except the King James Version, which has "ever."
King James Version (KJV)
John 18:20 "Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."
New King James Version (NKJV)
John 18:20 Jesus answered him, "I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing.
New International Version (NIV)
John 18:20 "I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
John 18:20 Jesus answered him, ""I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret.
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
John 18:20 Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together; I have said nothing secretly.
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
John 18:20 Jesus answered him, `I have talked so that anyone who wanted to could hear me. I have always taught in the meeting houses and in the temple. That is where the Jews always go. I have not said anything in a secret way.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
John 18:20 Jesus answered him, `I spake freely to the world, I did always teach in a synagogue, and in the temple, where the Jews do always come together; and in secret I spake nothing;
Darby Translation (DARBY)
John 18:20 Jesus answered him, I spoke openly to the world; I taught always in [the] synagogue and in the temple, where all the Jews come together, and in secret I have spoken nothing.
New English Translation (NET)
18:20 Jesus replied, "I have spoken publicly to the world. I always taught in the synagogues and in the temple courts, where all the Jewish people assemble together. I have said nothing in secret."
The Douay-Rheims Bible
John 18:20 Jesus answered him: I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in the synagogue and in the temple, whither all the Jews resort: and in secret I have spoken nothing.
The world's best translators agree. The meaning of the Greek word here is "always," meaning "at all times."
But the KJV has "ever"? That, too, means "always." From Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd College Edition, we find the following primary definition of "ever": "At all times; always." So even where the KJV has "ever," it still means "at all times; always." So Jesus was saying, "At all times I taught in the synagogue, and in the temple."
If someone disputes the use of "pantoteh" to mean "always" or "at all times," let's see the case for that. What does that word "pantoteh" mean, if not what has just been shown? Why should anyone think it means otherwise?
The issue is especially clear when we consider the context of Jesus' statement in John 18:20. The High Priest wanted to know whether Jesus taught in secret; whether he had secret teachings. Thus it would make the most sense to understand Jesus' reply as suggesting that he at all times he was teaching in places where his teachings were available to anyone who wanted to hear them. In other words, he had no secrets. That he follows this up with the statement, "and in secret I have said nothing" supports this reading of the text.
My understanding of John 18:20 is further supported by the verse that immediately follows John 18:20. Here Jesus tells his inquisitors that they may question those who have heard him teach. They know what was said, says Jesus. This reinforces the assertion by Jesus that at all times his teaching took place in public places. Those who heard his public lectures can say what his teachings are; there is no need to question Jesus to find out what he teaches.
NIV Jn. 18:21
"Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said."
KJV Jn. 18:21:
"Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them:
behold, they know what I said."
So the story is that Jesus is called in for questioning. They want to know whether he has secret teachings. The High Priest is probably worried that Jesus may be telling the people to believe things contrary to the teachings of the High Priest. Jesus says, "Hey, I don't have any secret teachings. I've always spoken openly, where everyone can hear me. I was always in the synagogues or in the temple when I taught;
I never said anything in secret. Why are you even asking me what I believe? Anyone who's heard me speak can tell you what I believe." This strikes me as the most reasonable reading of the verses in question.
So is it true that Jesus always taught in synagogue and in the temple? What does the biblical evidence show? It shows that this is false.
Jesus taught on a mountain (Matthew 5:1-2):
"Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them, saying..."
On a boat (Matthew 13:1-2):
"That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. Then he told them many things in parables, saying..."
On a plain (Luke 6:17-18):
"He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coast of Tyre and Sidon, who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases."
And in houses too (Luke 5:18-19):
"Some men came carrying a paralytic on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus. When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus."
Beside a lake:
Mark 2:13 "Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them."
Mark 4:1-2:
"Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge. He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said..."
Mark 6:32-35:
So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things. By this time it was late in the day, so his disciples came to him. 'This is a remote place,' they said, 'and it's already very late.'"
So Jesus lied about where he had been teaching. Jesus wants the High Priest to think that he didn't teach anywhere but in the synagogues and in the temple, and this is a lie." --Doug K.
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STEVE
Did you know the first synonym for invariable is always on Thesaurus.com
Actually I did. And I also think Till didn't use the right word there. But then again, Till isn't trying to pass himself off
as a God that has never sinned.
So I guess by your definition Till is a liar too?
Absolutely he has lied (at some point in his life, as he has admitted). But we aren't talking about Till, we are talking about your God who
you claim has never sinned. Jesus said "in secret I have said nothing." That's a lie, he had secret teachings and said lots of things in secret, and he even told others to keep his secret teachings a secret.
Everyone knows that is not what Jesus meant, don't be ridiculous.
Then what did he mean? What part of "in secret I have said nothing" am I not getting?
Secondly, those who were listening understood exactly what he meant for they had a direct invitation from his lips to correct him if he had spoken incorrectly at verse 23
Why wouldn't those liars back him up? As that sinner Farrell Till once put it:
"Let's keep in mind too that Matthew 26:72 says that Peter "denied WITH AN OATH, I know not the man." In other words, Peter denied under oath that he knew Jesus, so all the talk we hear from biblicists about the "reliability" of the testimony that Jesus rose from the dead doesn't take into consideration that they are calling "reliable" the testimony of a man who, by the admission of the NT,
lied under oath."
But that Jesus, (as the story goes) didn't get called on his bluff hardly matters (or maybe he did and it wasn't recorded). We know what he said, and we know it was a lie. And Jesus knew it too. He had secret teachings and said lots of things in secret, on purpose.
They had a perfect opportunity to claim he had been teaching subversively in secret yet they did not.
Are you admitting then that Jesus "had been teaching subversively in secret?" Yes, I think you are. And of course he was. And when he said he hadn't done that, he was lying.
Have you never read John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they *were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." That includes his speaking as well as his acts.
This dodge is lame. All of these Jesus stories were written decades later. That lots of his life and actions wasn't recorded has nothing to do with Jesus having secret teachings that taught in secret, flatly contradicting what he said.
Scores of times? Okay, a score is 20 times (look it up).
I did. The 12th definition is: "scores, a great many: Scores of people were at the dance."
Whip out at least 40 incidents where Jesus taught something privately that he did not in some form teach publicly that would not fall under the disclaimer of John 21:25.
This is good stuff indeed. Steve so lowers the bar, in the hope that Jesus' honesty quotient will be able to jump over it, that he requires Jesus to have lied 40 times over before it even counts! And this based upon a strained, antique literal interpretation of "scores!"
If Jesus had any secret teachings, or taught anything in secret, his claim that "in secret I have said nothing," is shown to be a lie.
Here is the second part of Doug's article where he gives chapter and verse for several of these examples (if Steve needs every single one, this can be arranged):
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(ii) Jesus' claim that he shared all of his teachings with his public audiences, that he never kept important parts of his teachings a secret, is also false.
Let's now look at some specific examples of the secretive aspect. Jesus denied that he said things in secret. Jesus claimed, "In secret I have said nothing." Of course, we must grant that this is not to be understood literally. Surely this is intended to mean that Jesus claimed that he did not have important teachings that were secret. The High Priest is concerned with the nature of Jesus' teachings, and Jesus assures him that there are no hidden or secret teachings. But what does the bible show? It shows that this claim is false too.
Going to his lectures would not have let his general audiences know his important aspects of his true teachings.
Mark 4:
2 He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said:
3 "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed.
4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came
and ate it up.
5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.
6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain.
8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times."
9 Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables.
11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12 so that, "`they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
[Here Jesus quotes parts of Isaiah 6:9-10]
Matthew 13:3-15 has the same story and quotation. Jesus intentionally talks in parables specifically to keep some people from understanding, and he does this so that they will not turn and be forgiven. (Obviously, Jesus does not want everyone to be saved, but that's another issue.)
Mark 4:33-34:
With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they
could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was
alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.
That is teaching in secret. There's more.
Matthew 13:34-52:
34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."[Psalm 78:2]
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls.
46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
47 "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish.
48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
51 "Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked. "Yes," they replied.
52 He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."
So Jesus is clearly shown using parables, and he's explained that the does so in order to keep those not in his "inner circle" from understanding the real meaning of his teachings. Then his disciples ask for an explanation when they are alone with him, and Jesus gives the explanation. That is teaching in secret. The most important aspect of the parable, its meaning, was told in secret.
Another aspect of the gospels that lends support to my claim that Jesus had secret teachings is the issue known to scholars as "The Messianic Secret." This thesis was first explained and defended by Wilhelm Wrede in his 1901 book _Das Messiasgeheimnis in den Evangelien_. It was published in English by Cambridge U. Press in 1971 as _The Messianic Secret_. Wrede's thesis is that Jesus did not claim to be the Messiah, but that after his crucifixion his followers wanted him to be the Messiah and the gospels reflected that. Since earlier, pre-crucifixion verses don't have the populace thinking that Jesus is the Messiah, Wrede postulated that verses were inserted showing Jesus telling people not to tell anyone that he is the Messiah. Perhaps the clearest of these is Mark 9:9: "He ordered them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. So they kept the matter to themselves." If it is an important part of Jesus' teachings that he is the Messiah, and he wanted this a secret at the time he was before the High Priest (since this is before Jesus rose from the dead), then Jesus definitely had a secret teaching when he told the High Priest that he did not. Wrede's thesis has come under some severe criticism, and it may not be defensible as originally stated. I don't intend to defend the thesis. The reason I mention Wrede's thesis is that Wrede brought out a number of related passages as an important issue, namely the passages where Jesus asks people not to say who he is and to keep his activities a secret. Investigation into Wrede's claim has uncovered many instances of the "Messianic Secret." If Jesus specifically tells people to keep his true nature a secret, this surely would come under the category of keeping some of his teachings a secret. Here are a few examples of Jesus asking others to keep his activities or his nature a secret.
Jesus wants demons to refrain from telling who he really is. Mark 1:23-26, 32-34:
23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out,
24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!"
25 "Be quiet!" said Jesus sternly. "Come out of him!"
26 The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.
32 That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed.
33 The whole town gathered at the door,
34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
When Jesus heals someone, he asks the man to keep quiet. Mark 1:41-44:
41 Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!"
42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.
43 Jesus sent him away at once with a strong warning:
44 "See that you don't tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them."
Jesus asks people to keep quiet about healing a little girl. Mark 5:41-43:
41 He took her by the hand and said to her, <"Talitha koum!"> (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!").
42 Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished.
43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.
Again after healing another man. Mark 7:34-36:
34 He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, <"Ephphatha!"> (which means, "Be opened!").
35 At this, the man's ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly.
36 Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it.
After healing a blind man, Jesus tells his own disciples to keep quiet. Mark 8:26-30.
26 Jesus sent him home, saying, "Don't go into the village."
27 Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, "Who do people say I am?"
28 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets."
29 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ."
30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
There are other examples, but the point has been made. Jesus is portrayed as telling people to keep a secret about his true nature and about his activities. To the extent that this could be interpreted as saying something in secret, Jesus lied when he was before the High Priest and said "in secret I have said nothing" (Jn. 18:20). Obviously at least one thing he said in relation to the healings and his true nature was a secret, and that is that he told people not to say anything. He was secretly telling some people to keep a secret. And he wanted them to keep a secret in relation to some important aspects of his teachings and activities, including the fact that he was (supposedly) the messiah. Jesus wanted to keep his true identity a secret. So he not only told things in secret, as when he explained parables, he asked others to join in the conspiracy of keeping his identity a secret. Jesus gives strict orders, stern warnings, not to tell people about some of his activities or his identity. Even to the point of having demons in on the conspiracy!
To sum up: John 18:20 shows Jesus making two claims: (a) that when he taught it was always either in the synagogue or in the temple, and (b) that he never kept secret important parts of his teachings. Verses from the other gospels show that this is incorrect. Those who believe that the John 18:20 account of what Jesus said is accurate are committed then to either admitting that the many verses that conflict with (a) and (b) are incorrect or that Jesus lied. Those who cling to biblical inerrancy are stuck with the fact that the bible depicts Jesus lying." --Doug K.
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
