Logic and Free Will [split from Std Creationism Thread]

[Youngearther]

This topic has been split from here. Please continue conversations in the appropriate thread.

--Savonarola, FFForums Mod@Large


" You are committing the fallacy of faulty analogy." "There are no such things as 'universal rules of logic."
This looks like a law of logic. Is it universal? Is it always true everywhere? In every culture and on every planet?

"Sure. The words "freethinker" and "youngearther" are so similar it must have been a slip of the fingers, right?"

A young earth is clearly taught in the the Bible. The concept of the free will is clearly taught in the Bible. Free thinking could only be possible if we had free wills. Therefore the Bible must be true if you are a free thinker.

[Doug]

" You are committing the fallacy of faulty analogy."

This is a well-known fallacy. It is not a universal rule of logic, nor does it purport to be.

"There are no such things as 'universal rules of logic."
This looks like a law of logic. Is it universal? Is it always true everywhere? In every culture and on every planet?

That there are no universal rules of logic is a statement that is true about logic, but it is not a statement in logic. It is not a universal rule of logic or even a rule of logic at all. It is not a rule of anything. It is just a true statement about the fact that there is no such thing as a universal rule of logic. There are many different logic systems, as many as there are cardinal numbers. They do not all have the same rules, hence there is no universal rule of logic.

A young earth is clearly taught in the the Bible.

That's one of the many reasons that we know that parts of the Bible are false.

The concept of the free will is clearly taught in the Bible. Free thinking could only be possible if we had free wills.

a. Free will is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. In fact, the opposite is taught. If people had free will, then there could be no such thing as prophecy since people could do something other than what the prophecy predicts.

God's foreknowledge is incompatible with free will.

The Freedom and Foreknowledge Argument
1. If God knows that I will do x tomorrow, then it is true that I will do x tomorrow.
2. If it is true that I will do x tomorrow, then I cannot possibly not do x tomorrow.
3. If I cannot possibly not do x tomorrow, then I am not free to do x tomorrow.
4. Therefore, If God knows that I will do x tomorrow, then I am not free to do x tomorrow.

So for any action x that you could perform, if God knows that you are going to do it, then you cannot do it freely because you have no choice in the matter. Choice is central to the concept of acting freely, so if you cannot refrain from doing a given action x, then you have no choice (premise #3) and hence no free will with respect to that action. If God knows all the actions that you are going to perform (if he knows the future completely) then you never act freely.

By the way, if you want to defend the claim that the Bible teaches that we have free will, by all means try to do so.

b. You also commit the fallacy of equivocation. "Free" will and "free" thinking are different uses of the word "free." You don't realize that in your argument above, so you commit the fallacy of equivocation, which is the fallacy of changing the meaning of one of the terms in your argument.

To say that someone has free will refers to the person's inherent ability to make choices. To say that someone is a freethinker is to refer to the method by which the person reaches conclusions about religion and/or the paranormal.

Therefore the Bible must be true if you are a free thinker.

More error. Even if the Bible were to teach that we have free will (which it doesn't), and if it were true that we in fact have free will, it would still not follow that the Bible is true anymore than it would follow that the Qur'an is true because it teaches that we have free will or that the Bhagavad Gita is true because it teaches that we have free will. Having one part of a book turn out to be true would not make the whole book true.

By the way, the Qur'an (of Islam) and the Bhagavad Gita (of Hinduism) do teach that we have free will. So by your reasoning, they must be true!

[youngearther]

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16,17 Adam was given a choice. He was warned not to eat from tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He ate from the tree and he demonstrated freewill. The fact that God foreknew the decision does not remove Adam from the responsibilty of his decision. When Jesus died on the cross it was an example of predestination, fulfilled prophesy and freewill.

"freethinker is to refer to the method by which the person reaches conclusions about religion and/or the paranormal."
Does a freethinker use freewill to choose his method? Just thinking.

"Having one part of a book turn out to be true would not make the whole book true."
I agree. But if you did not have freewill you could not choose to be a freethinker.

PS I really liked my Dr Livingstone example even if it did fail to get my point across.

[Doug]

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16,17

Equivocation again. To say that one may "freely eat" is not to make a statement about free will. It is a way of saying that the person is not prohibited from eating in those cases. It's a way of saying you can eat without restraint or qualification. To say "you are free to do x" is to say "you are allowed to do x." It has nothing to do with free will.

Think: If Adam had free will, why would God mention it just in the context of eating? That makes no sense. Is this to say that in other activities he did not have free will? No, this meaning of "free" in Gen. 2:16 does not refer to free will, it refers to rules and prohibitions, as the next verse confirms.

Adam was given a choice. He was warned not to eat from tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He ate from the tree and he demonstrated freewill.

You have not shown that.

The fact that God foreknew the decision does not remove Adam from the responsibilty of his decision.

Show this. Adam had no choice in the matter if God knew what he was going to do. Adam could not possibly have done otherwise or else God would have been wrong. God is not wrong (let us assume). So therefore Adam could not have done otherwise, so he had no free choice.

When Jesus died on the cross it was an example of predestination, fulfilled prophesy and freewill.

Talk is cheap. Where is your evidence?

"Having one part of a book turn out to be true would not make the whole book true."
I agree. But if you did not have freewill you could not choose to be a freethinker.

If I have no free will then I could not freely choose to be a freethinker. That's right.

[youngearther]

How did God foreknow Adams decision? How did He foreknow Jesus would submit to the cross? Or pass temptation after being in a desert and not eating for 40 days?
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
John 15:5
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:9
Notice the tree of life in the midst garden. (Maybe in the middle, the first tree Adam saw maybe he lost interest when he saw Eve) I believe this contained the life of God. If Adam ate from it first, which he was permitted to do, he would have had the strength to resist the temptation of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

[youngerearther]

"You have not shown that."

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:9
If Adam had a choice between every tree except one and one of them was the tree of life and one was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. How can he could he choose one over the other without freewill?
If Adam were to make another choice God would not be wrong, He would have foreknown it.

PS Are you going to Arkencounter when it is finished? I didn't think so. How do I known that? Do you think I would go if I get the chance? How do you know that? Does our knowledge of one another change our freewill?

[Doug]

How did God foreknow Adams decision? How did He foreknow Jesus would submit to the cross? Or pass temptation after being in a desert and not eating for 40 days?

God didn't know any of it because he doesn't exist. What we are talking about is the theology and logic involved in pretending that he did know this or know that. Don't forget that. I'm just playing along to show you what your own views lead to, and how they contradict each other.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
John 15:5
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:9
Notice the tree of life in the midst garden. (Maybe in the middle, the first tree Adam saw maybe he lost interest when he saw Eve) I believe this contained the life of God. If Adam ate from it first, which he was permitted to do, he would have had the strength to resist the temptation of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

There is nothing in those Bible verses, or anywhere else in the Bible, where it says that the tree of life would give anyone strength to do anything. It only says that it would have made Adam and Eve immortal if they ate it, so God had them thrown out of the Garden before they ate of it. Why didn't they eat from it earlier? They were already immortal, so there would have been no point. God tells Adam and Eve that if they eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, the forbidden tree, then "on that day you will surely die." Since they didn't die on that day, this is typically rectified by the theological interpretation that God was saying that they would become mortal and die one day.

So far I see nothing here about free will. Have you given up on that?

[Doug]

If Adam had a choice between every tree except one and one of them was the tree of life and one was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. How can he could he choose one over the other without freewill?

The issue is not whether he has a choice, but whether he has a free choice, a choice based on free will. So far you have nothing indicating that they are free choices.

If Adam were to make another choice God would not be wrong, He would have foreknown it.

Then you have the same problem with that choice, obviously. If God cannot possibly be wrong, then you cannot possibly do something other than what he has forseen. And if you cannot possibly do other than what God has forseen, they you aren't free to do otherwise. Being free to do otherwise is central to the concept of free will, don't you think?

PS Are you going to Arkencounter when it is finished? I didn't think so. How do I known that? Do you think I would go if I get the chance? How do you know that? Does our knowledge of one another change our freewill?

Our knowledge of events and circumstances influences our choices, but I wouldn't say that it changes our free will.

So far you haven't responded to the freedom and foreknowledge argument effectively, nor have you shown that the Bible tells us we have free will.

Here's a verse that speaks against free will:

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

And from Genesis 25:21-23:
...And the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22The children struggled together within her, and she said, "If it is thus, why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said to her,

"Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger."

How does God know what they are going to do if their actions are not already determined? Like a film strip of a completed film, God is looking into the future and seeing what they are going to do. But then it is what they must do, since they cannot do otherwise.

[Young Earther]

I am fear I am going to confuse things even more but here it goes. These are very good questions. My brother who is reformed presbyterian is a strong Calvinist. He leans toward your way of thinking.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Ephesian 1:3-10

My brother reads this and he sees He predestined us. I read this and see predestination through Jesus Christ. Adam was created an eternal being. He had everything including a beautiful wife (I assume she was beautiful. I never met a man who assumes she was ugly) What Adam lacked was the Life of Christ represented by the the tree of life. Before Adam sinned he was free to eat from that tree. Eternal life is in Christ. Eternal death is in the fallen Adam. Like Gollum in The Lord of Rings. But if you choose Christ, God will give you no credit. He will say I am not impressed. I chose you. The choice is yours. You have a free will.

"Wise men have the power to reason away what fools believe" Doobie Brothers
" Two roads diverged in the middle of my life I heard a wise man say. I took the road less traveled by and that made the difference every night and every day" Larry Norman One of the first christian rockers

[Doug]

I am fear I am going to confuse things even more but here it goes. These are very good questions. My brother who is reformed presbyterian is a strong Calvinist. He leans toward your way of thinking.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Ephesian 1:3-10

My brother reads this and he sees He predestined us. I read this and see predestination through Jesus Christ. Adam was created an eternal being. He had everything including a beautiful wife

I don't see anything relevant is any of this, except the notion of predestination, which works against your assertion that the Bible teaches that we have free will.

(I assume she was beautiful. I never met a man who assumes she was ugly)

DOUG
She was the only woman available, according to the story. She didn't have to be beautiful. So why the assumption that she was?

What Adam lacked was the Life of Christ represented by the the tree of life. Before Adam sinned he was free to eat from that tree. Eternal life is in Christ. Eternal death is in the fallen Adam. Like Gollum in The Lord of Rings. But if you choose Christ, God will give you no credit. He will say I am not impressed. I chose you. The choice is yours. You have a free will.

OK, so you assert the free will thesis is in the Bible. But you have only succeeded in introducting a verse that speaks against that.

[Young Earther]

Doug wrote
"How does God know what they are going to do if their actions are not already determined? Like a film strip of a completed film, God is looking into the future and seeing what they are going to do. But then it is what they must do, since they cannot do otherwise."

When God foresees He does not see what they are going to do. He sees what they are doing. (in real time.) God could write a prophesy about my life because He has already seen my whole life in real time. I can not change my past and I cannot change what God sees me do in real time in the future. But I have free will as I live my life. I am responsible for my choices.

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Eph 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

God saw Jacob in Christ and Easu in Adam

Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

How can we receive God's abundant provision......etc without free will?

Why would God offer it if I am not free to take It?

Psalm 8:3-6

When I consider your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained;
What is man that You take thought of him,
And the son of man that You care for him?
Yet You have made him a little lower than God,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet


Go Buckeyes beat Arkansas !!!

[Doug]

How can we receive God's abundant provision......etc without free will?

Why would God offer it if I am not free to take It?

DOUG
That is your problem to explain, not mine. Let's see how the Bible tells us explicitly that God gives people choices that are not free.

First, another example for you of how God plans out people's lives and does not give them free will to do otherwise:

Romans 9:17

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

DOUG
So the Pharaoh was predestined to become the Pharaoh--and then crushed--in order that God could display his power. This implies that the Pharaoh had no choice in whether or not to become Pharaoh.

Other areas in which the Pharaoh had no choice:
Exodus 4:21

The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."

So the Pharaoh had no choice about whether or not to let the Israelites go. So God does give people "choices," according to the Bible, where the person does not have the free will to accept or reject that choice.

God said he would harden the Pharaoh's heart, and then he did it, according to the Bible:

Exodus 7:13

Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

Exodus 9:12

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

Exodus 10:27

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

Exodus 11:10

Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

These next few verses show God making the Pharaoh want to chase the Israelites when they are leaving Egypt, so that the Pharaoh and his chariots will be destroyed, so that God will "gain glory." Rather heartless, one might say. The Pharaoh was not free to decide to let the Israelites go, and not free to refrain from chasing them to his doom.

Exodus 14:4

And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.”

Exodus 14:8

The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.

Exodus 14:17

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.

[Betsy]

You know, I remember vividly learning this story in Sunday School at the First United Presbyterian Church in Fayetteville when I was in the fifth grade, and thinking at the time that it seemed awfully unfair for God to "harden their hearts" so they all suffered and died. And then if Pharoah et al went to Hell for eternity for these acts, for which they had no choice because their hearts were hardened, how unfair would THAT be?! When I asked the teacher later about it, she just said something like "We can't always understand why God does things, we just have to have faith blah blah blah." Which, of course, is always the answer to things that make NO SENSE WHATSOEVER in Christianity. It makes you wonder why eventually EVERYONE doesn't just say, this is nonsense! and move on.

[Doug]

It makes you wonder why eventually EVERYONE doesn't just say, this is nonsense! and move on.

DOUG
It has taken centuries for freethinkers to get to the point in Western civilization where we can speak freely, and even in some places in the U.S. we still suffer repercussions from speaking our minds.

But more people every year, here in the U.S., reject their Christian upbringing.

According to Rainer Research, approximately 70 percent of American youth drop out of church between the age of 18 and 22. The Barna Group estimates that 80 percent of those reared in the church will be "disengaged" by the time they are 29.

See the article in Christianity Today magazine.

People are realizing that they can now speak more freely than ever. Religion is doomed.

[Young Earther]

Greetings Freethinkers
Thank you freethinkers for hosting this forum.
Thank you Betsy for sharing your experience. My experience growing up was similar. When I was I in high school I stopped reading my Bible because every time I read the Psalms, God told me I was wicked. In my fourth year of college I was reading John Steinbeck East of Eden. He was talking about this verse (or one similar) about Cain. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? Genesis 4:7 He was talking about how there was a way out for Cain. From that point on I began to seek God in earnest. Several months later I put my faith in Christ. After this I noticed that when I read the Psalms I identified with the righteous for the first time in my life.

For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish.
Psalm 1:6

"It ain't over till it's over" Casey Stengel

[Doug]

In my fourth year of college I was reading John Steinbeck East of Eden. He was talking about this verse (or one similar) about Cain. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? Genesis 4:7 He was talking about how there was a way out for Cain.

DOUG
No, that verse is talking about making offerings, and if they are done well they will be accepted. This was before Cain slew Abel.

After Cain killed his brother, God cursed Cain and gave him no way out. No forgiveness for what he had done.

Gen. 4:10 The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

Read it all you want, but you will not find Cain getting forgiveness. Your Christian interpretation of Genesis 4 is not based on the text. Cain never got "a way out." God put a mark on his forehead so people could recognize him and not kill him, so he would be condemned to wander the rest of his life and never find peace.

From that point on I began to seek God in earnest. Several months later I put my faith in Christ. After this I noticed that when I read the Psalms I identified with the righteous for the first time in my life.

DOUG
The Bible is not a handbook for the righteous, only the rightous-sounding.

I invite you to identify with the kind of people that do seek the truth, who do promote the welfare of humanity, and who reject the bronze-age, savage morality of the Bible: the freethinkers.

Looks like you don't know any more about the Bible than you do about the world you inhabit. (A reference to science.)

[Young Earther]

Cain and Abel

Abel, on his part also brought of the first lings of his flock and of their fat portions And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;

but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.
Genesis 4:3-5

By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
Hebrews 11:4

God instructed Cain to approach Him by faith and Cain rejected God and slew Abel. Just because Cain did not repent does not mean God would not forgive Him if asked. God is willing to forgive sins.


Predestination and Pharoah

This is the way I look at predestination. Think of two great ships on The Niagara river side by side above the the falls. The USS Adam and the USS Christ. It is predetermined that the USS Adam lacks sufficient power to overcome the current and will go over the falls. It is also predetermined that the USS Christ has enough power to overcome the current and will go on up river. All the passengers in the USS Adam are predestined to destruction. All in the USS Christ are predestinated to overcome. All in the USS Christ chose to come over from the USS Adam at some point in their life. God has the right to take someone like Pharaoh who in His foreknowledge will never choose to change ships to motivate others to cross over the plank to the USS Christ.

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Timothy 2:3-5

Doug
Thanks for your invitation. I respectfully decline.

[Doug]

God instructed Cain to approach Him by faith and Cain rejected God and slew Abel.

No, there is nothing in the story to indicate that Cain did not have faith. God just instructed each to give him an offering. Cain was a produce farmer and brought fruit of the harvest. Abel brought slaughtered animals, with lots of fat. God liked Abel's offering and did not like Cain's, although the story in Genesis does not say why he liked one and did not like the other. The anonymous author of Hebrews can speculate all he or she wants, but the Genesis story gives no indication of why the Bible God did not look with favor on Cain's offering.

Genesis 4:

Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” 8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

There is nothing about being asked to approach God "by faith." That's just fundamentalist imagination at work.

Just because Cain did not repent does not mean God would not forgive Him if asked. God is willing to forgive sins.

There is nothing in the story about whether or not Cain repented, and there is not a word about God being willing to forgive Cain if Cain repented. In fact, God is adamant that Cain's punishment is lifelong. There is no provision for a "way out," and no indication that the punishment would be anything but a life sentence of wandering and never being able to grow anything in the soil again. (see quotation in previous post) Pretending that the slaughter-happy God of the Bible would forgive people in the Old Testament is just your fundamentalist imagination.

Predestination and Pharoah

This is the way I look at predestination. Think of two great ships on The Niagara river side by side above the the falls. The USS Adam and the USS Christ. It is predetermined that the USS Adam lacks sufficient power to overcome the current and will go over the falls. It is also predetermined that the USS Christ has enough power to overcome the current and will go on up river. All the passengers in the USS Adam are predestined to destruction. All in the USS Christ are predestinated to overcome. All in the USS Christ chose to come over from the USS Adam at some point in their life. God has the right to take someone like Pharaoh who in His foreknowledge will never choose to change ships to motivate others to cross over the plank to the USS Christ.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that the Pharaoh was unwilling to accept Jesus since he was never presented with the opportunity--nor is Jesus ever mentioned in the Old Testament. Your pretensions to the contrary are just fundamentalist fantasy at work.

Note this:
1. If God had to harden the Pharaoh's heart, then the Pharaoh was otherwise willing to let the Israelites out of slavery.
2. God had to harden the Pharaoh's heart.
3. Therefore, the Pharaoh was otherwise willing to release the Israelites from slavery.

God didn't want the Israelites released before he killed many people and animals. So God caused the Pharaoh to do something he otherwise would not have done. So much for free will!

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Timothy 2:3-5

Other verses show that the God of the Bible does not want everyone to be saved:

2 Thess. 2:11:

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

So the God of the Bible sends some people a delusion so that they will believe a lie, and then damns them to hell for believing it! If he does this to anyone, this shows that he does not want everyone to be saved.

Matthew 7:21

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So some people will go to hell who:
a. Called Jesus their lord.
b. Cast out demons in the name of Jesus.
c. Performed miracles in the name of Jesus.

Oh, and compare:

Joel 2:32: “And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”

Romans 10:13: “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Quoting Joel 2:32)

So, will everyone who calls on the name of the Lord be saved?

Matthew: No.
Joel: Yes.
Paul: Yes.

Matthew, along with 2 Thess., suggests that God does not want everyone to be saved. Just another of the many, many Bible contradictions.

Thanks for your invitation. I respectfully decline.

Your loss. Just look at how much more you know about your Bible when you stop talking to fellow fundamentalists--who don't want you to know your Bible--and start talking to those who think carefully about the Bible.

[Savonarola]

This is the way I look at predestination. .... God has the right to take someone like Pharaoh who in His foreknowledge will never choose to change ships to motivate others to cross over the plank to the USS Christ.

I couldn't help but notice that this doesn't address Doug's point at all.

[youngearther]

"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth"

The delusion is given to those who refuse to believe (freewill)

"but only the one who does the will of my Father"

The will of the father is that we come to Him by faith not works. So doing good works is not good enough even if done in his name. Calling him Lord but not approaching Him by faith is not good enough.

Coming to the point in my life when I was willing to confess that I had no righteousness. I am morally bankrupt and unable to please God and that I needed God to give me righteousness through Christ was good enough. I confessed that I hated Him and had no desire to do His will and I was going to have to depend on Him for everything. He was going to have to work it out in me and I was willing to follow. Psalm 23 has become (is becoming) a reality in my life.
And yes I like debating freethinkers it forces me to think-- freely.