Conversation with a fundie

[ztsmart]

Joel Smith Alright so what you are telling me is this:

You are not sure how the entire evolution process works, if you did you would be able to repeat it, yet it is a fact.

Let me give you an analogy of what I am understanding:

Imagine if you said to me it is possible to fold a regular A4 sheet of paper in half 13 times, yet you yourself had only managed to fold it in half 12 times. You say it is possible and the evidence is that you have folded it 12 times it must be true because 12 is so close to 13. Yet until you actually fold it 13 times it is not a fact. The same with evolution, unless you can actually repeat the process (it should be possible if it were true) it is not a fact and just a theory.

You then claim that evolution is about replication, why would cells originally decide to do this?

Also I believe that God created the universe, therefore he must have created time as well as they are linked. If God created time then he does not have to be in it. That is different from Him existed in the universe for an infinite amount of time.

You are wrong about the universe consistently expanding and contracting. If this were so what forces would make matter move away from the centre, then back to the centre and back out again and so on.

There are two possibilities; The universe is expanding and will continue to do, or it will stop expanding and slowing contract towards the centre of it into a singularity. If an infinite amount of time had past, either the average temperature of the universe would be approaching zero or it wouldn't really exist at all.

You then go on to say that the universe could have appeared from nothing. Doesn't this contradict with your beliefs about magic?

To answer your question:

Paul's journey to Damascus is mentioned (at least) 3 times in Acts. Chapters 9, 22 and 26.
In all three of his encounters, there are only ever 2 people (voices) speaking.

Acts 22:9
And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.

Acts 9:7
And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.

In chapter 26 it doesn't mention whether the men hear anyone or not. In chapter 9 it states "hearing a voice", 'a voice' - meaning singular. It does not state if they hear Paul or if they hear God, but they only heard one of them. In chapter 22, "they did not hear the voice of Him", Him is capitalized because it is referring to God.

So to answer question, no they did not hear Him.

Also about your Ezekiel prophecy, I think you should read this:

exchangedlife . com/skeptic/ezekiel.htm

Zachary Smart Joel,

I don't have a lot of time but Ill try to address your comment.

Your logic is flawed. It is sensible to believe something even if you don't understand everything about it or if it is not repeatable (either because of lack of knowledge, or a technical issue). People, including you, do this all the time. Do you understand everything about electricity or antiboitics? Of course you do not, but it is sensible for you to have the beliefs you do about electricity/antibiotics because reasonable to have them based on observations and evidence.

Or to apply it to your idea of how mankind came into existence, how specifically, did god create the earth (also, which came first, the earth or the stars). Since you can't repeat the process, why do you believe it? Using your reasoning, you should reject everything that is not repeatable.

I'm not going to have a discussion with you about the ultimate fate of the universe. You just aren't qualified to discuss it (yet). I'm not trying to insult you, these subjects you are wanting to discuss are complex. Even scientists disagree on whether the universe as always existed, came into being, or if it is ever expanding or if it contracts as well.

I will say this. The idea of the universe coming into existence from nothing isn't magic, in that I am not suggesting it is super natural. There is some evidence that things do appear from no where with both matter and anti-matter coming into existence at the same time.

Do you see what this silly religion does to your mind?? In one verse it says that saw the light, but didn't here the voice. In the other it says they didn't see anyone but hear a voice. I don't care if you want to play some sort of interpretation jujitsu and try to pretend that the voice mentioned is some one who was there. You know exactly what it means when it says they stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. You aren't dumb. Don't make yourself look stupid trying to defend something that is indefensible.

As to Ezekiel, it is clear, and I mean clear, to anyone who reads those verses that it is says Neb will destroy the city.

herefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee... (7) Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings,... (9) And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers... (10) he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. (11) With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets...

How could it be any clearer?? Also, your little link doesn't explain this.

(19) For thus saith the Lord God; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee; (20) ...that thou be not inhabited; (21) I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God. Ezek. 26:3, 7, 9-11, 14, 19-21

You can go to Trye today. It isn't hard to find at all. Your Bible lies.

Joel Smith How is my logic flawed? You are comparing something you believe happened millions of years ago (evolution), which cannot be repeated today, to something that is happening today and can be repeated (electricity). Two different things.

Also the fact that we do not understand why the laws of physics adds more evidence for a God. There's no reason for them to be there and without them this universe would be pretty messed up. You can't explain what would have cause them and you never will be able if you keep believing in evolution.

Genesis 1:9
Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.

That's how he created the earth. It makes sense as well, if he is God he should be able to do anything.

Also the stars came after the earth.

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Do you see what this silly religion does to your mind?? In one verse it says that saw the light, but didn't here the voice. In the other it says they didn't see anyone but hear a voice. I don't care if you want to play some sort of interpretation jujitsu and try to pretend that the voice mentioned is some one who was there. You know exactly what it means when it says they stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. You aren't dumb. Don't make yourself look stupid trying to defend something that is indefensible.
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Please show me exactly where it says the people with him heard the voice of God. It says pretty plainly they only heard one voice and they did not hear the voice of God. If there were only two people speaking, logically that voice must have been Paul's.

I think you're just annoyed that this isn't a contradictory like you claimed it to be.

I'm going to repeat it just so you understand.

No where in the bible does it say that the people who were travelling with Paul heard the voice of God.

Ezekiel:

No where there does it say Nebuchadnezzar will raze the city. It says many nations will attack the city, which happened.

Also I believe that the Phoenician empire hasn't recovered to this day.

http://100prophecies . org/page8.htm

There's a whole site there explaining that prophecy as well as many others. I encourage you to read them.

Do you have any other scriptures from the bible you do not understand properly?

Zachary Smart Joel, I think you are either not understanding my points, or you are intentionally being obtuse.

1- It is sensible to believe things that cannot be repeated as there can be evidence for such things. Also, you agree with me because you believe in things that cannot be repeated.

2- And this is a separate point. It is sensible to believesomething even if you do not have complete knowledge of it. That is what my electricity example was about. You believe things that you don't have a complete knowledge of. How would it even be possible to know every little detail of something? Using your absurd rule, you couldn't ever believe in anything without knowing everything about it. This really isn't a hard point to grasp.

3- As stated before, you are not qualified to discuss the laws of the universe on the level you are trying to engage me with in conversation. I'm not being mean here, but you clearly don't have a grasp of the topics you are trying to bring up. That's okay, not many people do, but the entire argument you are trying to make here does not stand to reason. You seem to be saying, "We can't explain X, therefore, god must have created X". That is flawed logic. How is that different than the ancient Greeks saying "We can't explain the sun, therefore it is Apollo ridding around on a chariot of fire", or people saying "We can't explain a rainbow, therefore, it is god promising he won't flood the world"

4- Evolution is a fact. I'm not going to argue with you about this, because if you insist that evolution is not a fact, you are either ignorant, incredible stupid, or rationalizing that it doesn't occur because it believing it would create a massive amount of cognitive dissidence for you to have to deal with...and no one likes cognitive dissidence.

5- Here is what it says:

"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

How mentally impaired are you that you interrupt that as anything other than exactly what it says. No one in their right mind would interrupt that as the voice belonging to Saul. I suspect that you are an otherwise intelligent person, but do you see what religion is doing to you? It makes you mind twist, bend, and distort things so they can agree with your seriously messed up belief system. You are arguing things that would make anyone look like a fool. I know you see the problem here.

6-

"No where there does it say Nebuchadnezzar will raze the city. "

Yes, it does. How else do you interrupt that? It also says TYRE, not the Phoenician empire or anything else you want to twist the verse to into saying it says the city of TYRE, shall never be rebuilt or found again. Well, that's just not true is it?

Joel Smith I may not be able to understand what you believe as you claim, so I'll stop trying to disprove common sense to you. But I'll continue with the topic of the bible, since you obviously do not know as much as you claim.

It states quite clearly that they only heard one voice. If they heard multiple voices it would say "They saw no one but heard voices". It's pretty clear they only heard Paul. Obviously you do not know the difference between plural and singular.

It makes perfect sense, I have explained this to several others as well and not one of them did not understand it. So you are either one of three things: Really bad at interpretating scriptures, not as smart as you appear to be, or you refuse to believe this because you no that is disproves all of your facts.

Please show me where it says Babylon will raze Tyre to the ground. And Tyre was the capitol

Also you claim there are heaps of false prophecies and contradictions throughout the bible, please show these to me.

One more question for you: Tonight I was at church, I saw (with my own eyes) people legs grow out in front of me, people I have known for some time. After their legs grew, their pain also started leaving their body.

Now before you go away and say I'm lying. If I was lying I would be contradicting beliefs and my relationship with God. If my God was not real, there is no reason why I would want you to believe in Him. So if it's not logical for me to lie, logically it must be true.

[Doug]

Also you claim there are heaps of false prophecies and contradictions throughout the bible, please show these to me.

DOUG
As you've seen, the Tyre prophecy is a good one.

Ezekiel 26:14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. 15 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says to Tyre: Will not the coastlands tremble at the sound of your fall, when the wounded groan and the slaughter takes place in you? ...19 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."

Of course, Tyre is rebuilt, inhabited, and easily found. Call your travel agent. The "prophecy" is toast.

One more question for you: Tonight I was at church, I saw (with my own eyes) people legs grow out in front of me, people I have known for some time. After their legs grew, their pain also started leaving their body.

Now before you go away and say I'm lying. If I was lying I would be contradicting beliefs and my relationship with God. If my God was not real, there is no reason why I would want you to believe in Him. So if it's not logical for me to lie, logically it must be true.

DOUG
The leg-growing trick is an old staple of faith healers and boy scout camps. Have someone sit in a chair and hold their feet up, extended. In most cases, people will not fully extend each leg unless they first wiggle in the seat to adjust how they are sitting. You don't let them. So one leg appears shorter than the other. You point this out by indicating how the person's heels don't match up in length. Make a big deal about how this person didn't even know he or she had one leg shorter than the other. Call on Jesus while you move the person's feet back and forth while still extended. This adjusts the person's butt so that the legs are each fully extended. The heels are now flush (unless the person really does have one leg shorter than the other!). The young and simple-minded will be awed by the divine power at work.

An old trick. No professional magician would have the nerve to do such a stupid trick in front of a paying audience.

Where could you find a group of people so stupid and gullible that they would actually believe that you have helped a person's leg grow by watching such a display? Oh, look! A church...

[Dardedar]

DOUG
The leg-growing trick is an old staple of faith healers and boy scout camps.

DAR
And Chiropractors. I've actually had one do this trick to me (now I realize he was just pulling my leg).

I sent Zack an email response this, this morning which included this Tyre set up and roast (sent to my JW grandmother a couple years ago).

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I'll just tackle the Tyre prophecy bit since I have the info handy. Here is response I put together a few years back.

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6.) [Prophecy] Tyre would be conquered by Nebuchadrezzar… thorough destruction… fishermen would dry their nets there.

DAR: It is almost beyond my comprehension that anyone would try to pass this off as a fulfilled prophecy. This multiple part prophecy failed on every level (and there are at least eight levels). But the most obvious blunder made here is that Tyre was NOT conquered by Neb., and the Bible plainly admits this:

“Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:…” Ezek. 29:18

It’s important to point out that Ezekiel’s “original collection was rewritten and expanded by an editor” (as my Oxford Annotated RSV notes) so even if the prediction hadn’t failed directly, and they admitted it, it could have just been written in later.

Here are two standard references referring to the prediction of Neb’s attack on Tyre:

"Nebuchadnezzar's campaign against Tyre, after having lasted thirteen years, had come to an end two or three years previously, without having had the result expected by the prophet in his announcement of judgement against Tyre: Tyre was not destroyed or even plundered." -- Walther Eichrodt Ezekiel

"This oracle [29:17-21], the latest dated oracle in the book, is set in April of 571BC, shortly after the end of Nebuchadnezzar's unsuccessful siege of Tyre. The prophet or his disciples were apparently worried that the earlier prophecies against Tyre had not been fulfilled. To explain this situation, God tells Ezekiel that Egypt is to be given to Nebuchadnezzar as compensation for the effort he expended trying to capture Tyre... As later events developed, Ezekiel's substitute prophecy against Egypt was not fulfilled either. Nebuchadnezzar apparently did campaign in Egypt and may have even exacted tribute from the pharaoh, but the country was not destroyed in the way that the prophet predicted."
-- Wilson, Robert R Wilson “Ezekiel”, in James L Mays (Gen. Ed.) Harper’s Bible Commentary

Ezekiel's prophecies concerning Tyre failed miserably on the eight most important predictions, constituting almost the entire prophecy. Let me detail them:

1. The city was NOT plundered and looted by Nebuchadnezzar as specifically predicted at 26:12. Ezekiel even admitted this 16 years later at 29:18.

2. It has NEVER been completely and permanently destroyed as predicted
throughout Ezekiel chapter 26.

3. NOR was it EVER SCRAPED BARE as predicted by verses 26:4 & 26:14. Ruins and archaeological remains still exist today. (I have pictures if you like)

4. MANY NATIONS did not come against Tyre like the sea casting up waves as
predicted at 26:3. Nebuchadnezzar failed, Alexander the Great was almost
THREE CENTURIES LATER, and the next major defeat was almost SIXTEEN CENTURIES after Alexander.

5. It was never SUBMERGED BY THE SEA as predicted by 26:19.

6. Damage to the city HAS BEEN REBUILT in direct contradiction to 26:14.

7. It is CURRENTLY INHABITED and ALWAYS HAS BEEN, in violation of 26:19.

8. And it can EASILY be FOUND in dramatic violation of 26:21.

In fact, Harper's Bible Dictionary says, "The city has been almost continuously occupied from the third millennium B. C. until the present, except for a major gap from 2000 to 1600 B.C.” The Bible would have been more accurate if it had predicted that Tyre would always be inhabited. It is one of the oldest, longest inhabited cities on the planet. Here is a picture of Tyre today, does it look uninhabited to you? The current population of Tyre is 117,100.

And the prophecy about “drying fishing nets”? Does it take much predictive power to guess that people living in a fishing city by the sea will be fishing and drying their nets in the future?!

Now, there is one objection you might bring up. You might say Tyre was really the mainland part and that this was the part that was destroyed and remains uninhabited. But that won’t work. The fact that Tyre to Ezekiel was the island stronghold is very evident in chapter 27 where he says that Tyre's "borders are in the heart of the seas" (v:4). Just before this, he said that Tyre dwelt "at the entry of the sea" (v:3), and the imagery in this chapter is that of a ship, which speaks of the oars (v:6) and sails (v:7) of this ship. The imagery is describing a city built on an island NOT a mainland suburb. The city of Tyre was always considered the island, the other parts were suburbs.

As this book notes:

"The location of the city of Tyre is not in doubt, for it exists to this day on the same spot and is known as Sur." (Katzenstein, H.J., The History of Tyre, 1973, p9) As the online encyclopedia wikipedia notes:

“Tyre currently has a population of 117,100 inhabitants… Today it is the fourth largest city in Lebanon and houses one of the nation's major ports.” (emphasis mine)

Here is another nice picture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... arbour.jpg

The prediction:

“...thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; THOU SHALT BE BUILT NO MORE: for I the LORD have spoken it,... I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities THAT ARE NOT INHABITED;... THAT THOU BE NOT INHABITED;” Ezek. 26: 14, 19, 20


If you squint, I would swear that it looks inhabited. After all, it HAS 117,100 inhabitants. Every one them a testament to failed Bible prophecy. Can a prophecy fail more blatantly than this?

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Edited by Savonarola on 20100519 2123: replaced oversized picture with link