Truth is Timeless

[graybear13]

Things are time conditioned, but truth is timeless. The more truth you know, the more truth you are.

"Truth is inconcussible--forever exempt from all transient vicissitudes, albeit never dead and formal, always vibrant and adaptable--radiantly alive. But when truth becomes linked with fact, then both time and space condition its meanings and correlate its values. Such realities of truth wedded to fact become concepts and are accordingly relegated to the domain of relative cosmic realities."

graybear

[Dardedar]

"Truth is inconcussible--forever exempt from all transient vicissitudes,..."

DAR
And the source of this mind mush? The "Truth Book" known as the Urantia Book, (118:3.2)

What a load of horse manure.

D.
--------------------
As I told you last time you quoted from this:

"My parents (dragging me along) used to go door to door selling "The Truth Book" back in the late 60's and early 70's. The full title was "The Truth that Leads to Everlasting Life" but they just called it "The Truth book." It was a profoundly popular book. I think it sold over 100 million copies and was listed in the Guinness book of world records as one of the top sellers. Ironically, most of the people who were selling it, are dead now. That wasn't the plan, but "the truth," otherwise known as reality, really isn't interested in adapting itself to the silly little stories us humans like to write. That book wasn't remotely "The Truth" and in fact was full of howlers (and false predictions). The "Truth book" you are talking about is the Urantia book. How likely is it that a book that first appeared sometime after 1924 really has some new accurate information about a Jewish guy 1,900 years earlier?
Not very."

[kwlyon]

Things are time conditioned, but truth is timeless. The more truth you know, the more truth you are.

"Truth is inconcussible--forever exempt from all transient vicissitudes, albeit never dead and formal, always vibrant and adaptable--radiantly alive. But when truth becomes linked with fact, then both time and space condition its meanings and correlate its values. Such realities of truth wedded to fact become concepts and are accordingly relegated to the domain of relative cosmic realities."

graybear

Gray...buddy...you know I am quite fond of you right.... Seriously I like you. However I must ask you never to post anything like this again. I make a living on my, frankly rather limited, intellect. I am measurably less intelligent for having exposed my brain to this mindless drivel. I can only hope, for the sake of my future children, it has not detrimentally effected my testicles.

Kevin

[graybear13]

I'm sorry Kevin... I didn't mean to zap-fry your figs and I sure as hell didn't mean to promote or sell a book.
I just think timeless truth is an interesting concept. Does it exist? If it does how does it relate to facts?

gray

[kwlyon]

I'm sorry Kevin... I didn't mean to zap-fry your figs and I sure as hell didn't mean to promote or sell a book.
I just think timeless truth is an interesting concept. Does it exist? If it does how does it relate to facts?

gray

Hehe...Zap-fry my figs.......that, my friend, is why you are awesome!

[Doug]

I just think timeless truth is an interesting concept. Does it exist? If it does how does it relate to facts?

DOUG
And if you are going about looking for it, what is your method of looking? If it's anything like your method of looking for truth in physics, you might want to reevaluate your method.

In philosophy, we have tried a number of methods. Some philosophers think they've found a method that works. Others have argued that there can't be any such method. Others have taken yet other stances on the matter.

Reinvent the wheel at your peril.

[kwlyon]

Careful there doug...he may zap-fry your figs:)

[graybear13]

And if you are going about looking for it, what is your method of looking?
Reinvent the wheel at your peril.

Hi Doug,

I read some but mostly I use the closed eye method...I listen to my heart and follow where it leads.
I contemplate my own true self, it keep me young as I grow old.

The wheel cannot be reinvented because it exists outside of time,
we can only try to see it more clearly.

"Time is measure-no measure no time.
To my mind the criteria for truth needs to shift
from what is observable/measurable-to
'what doesn't change' : = Timeless Truth." mel

I can hear the bacon popin' and the eggs are fryin'.
Welcome to the court of the Crimson King...court jester graybear at your service.

gray

[Doug]

I read some but mostly I use the closed eye method...I listen to my heart and follow where it leads.

DOUG
Being led with closed eyes results in a lot of bumps on the head and wandering around lost.

The heart may be able to tell you a lot about whether to break up with a girlfriend or whether you should put on your pants when the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door.

But your heart won't tell you the reason your car won't start, why sunspots affect cell phones, or the ultimate constituents of matter. In other words, the heart is a crappy scientist. Let the heart lead you to a science lab, and let the brain take over...

[Dardedar]

DOUG
The heart may be able to tell you a lot about whether to break up with a girlfriend

DAR
Doug is of course speaking of the heart metaphorically. Gray should know that the heart is a pump and contrary to long held superstition is not involved in any reasoning or cognitive functions.

or whether you should put on your pants when the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door.

DAR
The answer to that is no. Go with your pants off.

GRAY
wheel cannot be reinvented because it exists outside of time

DAR
Now make it rhyme and you have the start of a poem. But nothing more. You might as well be referring to invisible pink unicorns.

D.
------------------
"Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them." — Steve Eley

Incidentally, there is a really cool article dismantling that New Age icon/Holy book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Motorcycle Maintenance Without the Zen
How Pirsig’s Mistakes About Atheism Continue Today

You can read it here. Scroll down a bit.

[graybear13]

DOUG
The heart may be able to tell you a lot about whether to break up with a girlfriend

DAR
Doug is of course speaking of the heart metaphorically. Gray should know that the heart is a pump and contrary to long held superstition is not involved in any reasoning or cognitive functions.

or whether you should put on your pants when the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door.

DAR
The answer to that is no. Go with your pants off.

GRAY
wheel cannot be reinvented because it exists outside of time

DAR
Now make it rhyme and you have the start of a poem. But nothing more. You might as well be referring to invisible pink unicorns.

D.
------------------
"Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them." — Steve Eley

Incidentally, there is a really cool article dismantling that New Age icon/Holy book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Motorcycle Maintenance Without the Zen
How Pirsig’s Mistakes About Atheism Continue Today

You can read it here. Scroll down a bit.

Thanks for the link Darrel..."The laws of physics and of logic...the number system...the principle of algebraic substitution. These are ghosts. We just believe in them so thoroughly they seem real. For example, it seems completely natual to presume that gravitation and the law of gravitation existed before Isaac Newton. It would sound nutty to think that until the seventeenth century there was no gravity. .....the law of gravity exists nowhere except in peoples heads. It's a ghost!" Pirsig

Pirsig is out there on the edge of what I'm talking about.
The ghosts versus the timeless aspects of what we are trying to measure/observe.

The problem is I think it is time for science to take a small leap of faith with regard to, for example, gravity. Gravity is something that we probably will never be able to directly observe...we can measure/observe gravitational effect on
space-time....the force it exerts on matter...The way it somehow warps space around large masses....bending light/Einstein's ring...the discovery of Dark Matter (aether?)....all of these measurements/observations (ghosts/reflections) are telling us about a real/timeless thing.

The reification of the timeless aspect of gravity is the "Quality event." Such a leap of faith is the connection that will take us from metaphysical speculation to reality. Without a little faith it's all just a dream.

A small leap of faith is not a slippery slope to believing in pink unicorns...it is a necessary step toward finding the UFT.

I heard pink unicorns eat black holes and shit galaxies.
When you believe in them is the only time you can see them.

"No measure no time"

graybear

[kwlyon]

Gravity is something that we probably will never be able to directly observe...we can measure/observe gravitational effect on
space-time....the force it exerts on matter...The way it somehow warps space around large masses....bending light/Einstein's ring...the discovery of Dark Matter (aether?)....all of these measurements/observations (ghosts/reflections) are telling us about a real/timeless thing.

Sweet Zombie Jesus Grey...what exactly would you consider a direct observation then? I mean, by this logic, we never DIRECTLY OBSERVE ANYTHING! It seems you are operating under a completely different theory of knowledge than I am. Because what you have described above is about as direct as any observation can ever be.

Kevin

P.S. Pirsig...is this another SWDKWII?

[Savonarola]

The problem is I think it is time for science to take a small leap of faith with regard to, for example, gravity.

I agree that the problem is that you think stupid things.

I heard pink unicorns eat black holes and shit galaxies.
When you believe in them is the only time you can see them.

Which is why science doesn't do faith. Science is designed to be beyond personal beliefs. That's one reason it's so powerful. Plus, leaps of faith kill inquiry and learning; your idea is just like Intelligent Design Creationism but in the physical sciences. We don't put up with that bullshit in real science.

[Dardedar]

A small leap of faith is not a slippery slope to believing in pink unicorns...it is a necessary step toward finding the UFT.

DAR
"Ultimate Free Thinker?"

[kwlyon]

A small leap of faith is not a slippery slope to believing in pink unicorns...it is a necessary step toward finding the UFT.

DAR
"Ultimate Free Thinker?"

No... Unstable Fuck-Tard...

citation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ge3bDSqKno

[Savonarola]

"Ultimate Free Thinker?"

No, unified field theory. You know, the thing that doesn't exist but exists if we already believe in it. Also, the thing that explains everything once we accept that we can't know everything.

[Doug]

No, unified field theory. You know, the thing that doesn't exist but exists if we already believe in it. Also, the thing that explains everything once we accept that we can't know everything.

DOUG
I'm glad you got it. I was going to guess it was the cage fighting thing, but I think I was one letter off.


A debate about detecting gravity...

[graybear13]

I mean, by this logic, we never DIRECTLY OBSERVE ANYTHING! Kevin

WOW! This is all starting to sound familiar. First it was Savonarola wanting to "T" bone me in my car to teach me a lesson, now it looks like Doug wants to try to kick my ass...you want to talk about unstable? Whats next? Maybe you want to lynch me or nail me to a cross just because I'm trying to open your eyes.

The sole purpose of this exercise is to "rewire your mind" (Suskind) so you can see that you do not "DIRECTLY OBSERVE ANYTHING". Didn't you get the memo? "It's all an illusion".

All science does right now is measure the energy or force manifestations of about 4-6% of all of the "stuff we don't know what it is". With the discovery of Dark Energy and Dark Matter it has become clear that the overall picture is much larger than we thought hence the need for a rewire job in our minds. Kind of like the transition, not to long ago, from thinking that our galaxy was the universe to the post Hubble view.

Kevin, you said to me once that I was trying to change 200 years of science. That is bull shit! Just need to rewire it. We could have been at this "threshold of a dream" a long time ago if the Michelson/Morley expirement had proved the existence of Dark Matter.

If science wants to rest on its laurels and pat itself on the back for all of its great accomplishments...that is tragic.
The world needs for science to get gravity off our backs...now!

gray

[kwlyon]

WOW! This is all starting to sound familiar. First it was Savonarola wanting to "T" bone me in my car to teach me a lesson, now it looks like Doug wants to try to kick my ass...you want to talk about unstable? Whats next? Maybe you want to lynch me or nail me to a cross just because I'm trying to open your eyes.

I don't believe anyone here would mean you any harm. I don't know what a "T-bone" would entail, however I am reasonably certain Savonarola would not involve you in it without your consent:) As for Doug...I somehow missed that exchange...I am rather certain you have little to fear. Doug only punches people on Thursday between the hours of 5:30pm and 8:00pm. I'm also certain, last I checked anyways, that his "beat-down" schedule is full up through the year so you will have to be placed on a waiting list. Oh, and I was not insinuating you are unstable...though that is an accusation I would likely make in jest. I was simply applying my meaning to UFT:)...and I needed a good excuse to post a hovind vid in context.

The sole purpose of this exercise is to "rewire your mind" (Suskind) so you can see that you do not "DIRECTLY OBSERVE ANYTHING". Didn't you get the memo? "It's all an illusion".

Nope...didn't get that memo. Plenty is directly observed in the physics sense. However there is a lot we take for granted that probably is not...I would ask, however, that you leave my wiring alone. Zap-fry my figs if you must...but don't cross my wires...I am crazy enough as it is.

All science does right now is measure the energy or force manifestations of about 4-6% of all of the "stuff we don't know what it is". With the discovery of Dark Energy and Dark Matter it has become clear that the overall picture is much larger than we thought hence the need for a rewire job in our minds. Kind of like the transition, not to long ago, from thinking that our galaxy was the universe to the post Hubble view.

I actually agree with a bit of this...it's just that we often disagree on what is currently understood. Paradigm shifts are very much a part of science...that does not mean, however, that we don't have a good handle on many things at present.

Kevin, you said to me once that I was trying to change 200 years of science. That is bull shit! Just need to rewire it. We could have been at this "threshold of a dream" a long time ago if the Michelson/Morley expirement had proved the existence of Dark Matter.

Very little of our present science needs to be re-written. Again there is a lot we understand quite well. And we very rarely overturn well established theories in science...we just find a few nuances that call for the theory to be further developed--for example classical mechanics giving rise to quantum theory or relativity. Classical mechanics is not "wrong" nor is it in need of rewriting. There is simply more to the story. Oh, and there is no feasible way that the results from the Michelson/Morley experiment could have suggested the existence of Dark Matter...this experiment was quite unrelated.

If science wants to rest on its laurels and pat itself on the back for all of its great accomplishments...that is tragic.
The world needs for science to get gravity off our backs...now!

gray

I don't think anyone is wasting time patting themselves on the back. At any rate it would be fun to meet you some time. You should come to a meeting. I promise to protect you from the big bad Doug.

Kevin

[Doug]

WOW! This is all starting to sound familiar. First it was Savonarola wanting to "T" bone me in my car to teach me a lesson, now it looks like Doug wants to try to kick my ass...you want to talk about unstable? Whats next? Maybe you want to lynch me or nail me to a cross just because I'm trying to open your eyes.

DOUG
Yes, it is starting to sound familiar. You still can't comprehend even the simplest concepts.

"UFT" v. "UFC" A joke. No one here would bother to threaten you because you are a joke too, not a threat.

If you want to open our eyes, use evidence, not your usual method of unfounded assertion. Has than started to sink in yet? Will it ever?