But What If You Are Wrong?

[vedaray]

But, what if you are wrong?

Are you on of those people that believe that the earth and the universe just appeared by chance without any input or action from a supreme being? That life formed as protoplasm in the sea from cells that just randomly got together. Then the protoplasm eventually turned into higher forms of life. Do you think that when all this evolution finally produced monkeys and apes that another random act produced the first man? Well, you have lots of company. But, what if you are wrong?
Do you believe that men do not possess souls and that when we die that is it? That we might just as well live any way we want to because, in the long run, there will be no consequences if we do bad things. For that matter there are no bad actions. There is no such thing as good or evil. Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die. No need to worry about whether we are going to Heaven or Hell. They don’t exist, right? But, what if you are wrong?
Maybe you do believe that there is a God or supreme being that controls the events of man and the universe. Perhaps, you believe in an after life, even the existence of both Heaven and Hell. The Bible to you is just another piece of literature written in an antiquated language. Your philosophy is that there are many avenues to God. After all, all the major religions offer the means for a person to get to paradise. One religion is as good as another, you say. But, what if you are wrong?
You say that you are not a Christian, but you are a good person. You give to the poor, help the sick and oppressed, obey the law, are kind to animals, and are faithful to your husband or wife. Even if you don’t have any thing to do with a church, you are probably a better person than many professing Christians. Aren’t most of them just hypocrites? You contend that God is a kind and loving God and that He would not turn you away from Heaven just because you never accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior. But, what if you are wrong?
So, you were baptized as an infant into the church. Naturally, this makes you a Christian. You belong to a church and have attended church your entire life. You tithe and teach Sunday School. You have been a deacon, and you sing in the choir. You intend to work hard at being a Christian as long as you live. You know that if you are not a good Christian, one never existed. But, what if you are wrong?

What if?

What if there is a God that has always existed? What if He is all knowing, all powerful, and is everywhere at all times? What if He exist as three beings in one, The Father, The Son (Jesus Christ), and The Holy Ghost or Spirit? What if He created the entire universe and mankind? What if He is perfectly good and holy? How can we as humble humans approach an all powerful, holy God?
There is a proscribed method that enables mankind to come to God. That method is spelled out in only one place, The Holy Bible. In the Bible, John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” So, first we must accept that the Bible is the word of God. The Bible is the only way that God communicates with mankind. In Romans 10:17 we see that, “-- faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
The only problem is we can’t communicate with Him in our natural state. And what is our natural state. Romans 5:12 states, “Wherefore, as by one man (Adam, the first man) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
But, you ask, “what about the good people?” Romans 3:10 & 11 tells us, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”
Well then, if we are all sinners and sinners cannot have a relationship with God, how do we overcome this great problem?
Here is the good news. After Jesus Christ who led a perfect, sinless life was crucified and rose from the dead He gave instructions to his disciples. And he said unto them, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Mark 15:15)
The word gospel means good news. In its basic form the gospel is this: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

The Solution for Sin

At some point in everyone’s life, God’s Spirit speaks to our spirit. Call it an inner voice, conscience, or just that feeling one gets when, as a child, you know that you have done something wrong. This happens to each person that is born into this world. There are no exceptions. This is how God communicates to every human that there is something lacking in their being, that they are flawed.
Only when a person is exposed to God’s law as revealed to man in the Bible, can he know the flaw which exists within him is Sin. That is why evangelists and missionaries preach God’s word throughout the world, bringing a knowledge of the existence of sin, explaining how sin alienates man from God, and presenting a solution to the rift that exists between them.
Much doctrine exists in the Bible pertaining to such mysterious concepts as justification, substitution, and redemption as it pertains to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, sinful man can not comprehend these great truths. Man’s spiritual eyes are blinded. On his own, man is unable to become reconciled to God.
This is where God’s Holy Spirit comes into play. The Spirit opens man’s spiritual eyes revealing to the individual his sinfulness. To those whose names are written in The Book of Life, God’s Spirit gives a new heart making it possible for a sinner to confess his sins, and acknowledge his helplessness to save himself.
At the same time that a sinner’s spiritual eyes are opened to his lost condition, he is given the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.”). Now he can trust in the death and resurrection of Christ to pay the debt that he owes to God for his sins.

Is This Plan for Salvation Fair?

Many who are reading this have read the Bible and have seen in several places that God chooses who He will save and who He will send to Hell. Examples of this are found in Ephesians 1:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 2 Peter 1:10. By human reasoning, this plan for man’s salvation seems arbitrary and unfair. Why doesn’t everyone have an equal chance at being saved from hell? The simplistic answer is -- that’s the way it is.
The truth is we cannot, in our finite wisdom, understand the infinite wisdom and reasoning of an omniscient God. In Exodus 33:19: God says, “. . . I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.” Also, in Malachi 1:2 & 3; “. . . Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau. . . . .”
The fact is that no man can know whose name is written in God’s Book of Life and whose is not. That is why Christians are responsible for spreading the Gospel to the whole world. They are the instrument God uses to carry out His plans and will. All we can know for sure is stated in Romans 8:30: “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” In the end, everything that happens is for the sole purpose of glorifying God.

What Should You Do?

If, after reading this tract, you feel that God’s Spirit is speaking to you and condemning you of your sins, you are at a great point in your life. You have, at this very moment, the opportunity to reach out and grab eternal life for your very own.
Becoming a Christian is so simple that even a young child can do it. Just confess your sins and acknowledge your sinful nature. You don’t have to enumerate every sin you ever committed, just your sinfulness in general. Tell God that you know you are lost and will depend on the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, to pay your sin debt for you. Ask Him to come into your life and make you a new being by washing away your sin for all time. Ask for His help to live a life that will be pleasing to Him.

Having done this, find a church that teaches that the Bible is God’s word, that Christ is God’s Son born of a virgin, that He died, was buried, and was resurrected on the third day. Stand up before the congregation and testify to the fact that you have ask God to save you from your sins and that you are prepared to live your life for Him. Ask to be baptized. Study the Bible, listen to good Bible teachers, and fellowship with other Christians. God Bless You.

[Savonarola]

But, what if you are wrong?

I'm not.

But, what if you are wrong?

But what if up is down and black is orange?! OH NOES!

If, after reading this tract, you feel that God’s Spirit is speaking to you and condemning you of your sins, you are at a great point in your life.

No, it just means that the reader is as delusional as are you.

If -- on the other hand -- after reading our tract that is merely an introductory rebuttal to Pascal's Wager, you still think that such an argument is a good one, I'll be happy to take it apart for you.

[kwlyon]

Pascal's wager is actually an excellent argument for atheism...

[Doug]

Do you believe that men do not possess souls and that when we die that is it? That we might just as well live any way we want to because, in the long run, there will be no consequences if we do bad things. For that matter there are no bad actions. There is no such thing as good or evil. Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die. No need to worry about whether we are going to Heaven or Hell. They don’t exist, right? But, what if you are wrong?

DOUG
Well, there you have it. 100% self-interest. If there is no carrot or stick, there is no ethics, on that person's view. You don't do good or avoid doing wrong because those actions are right or wrong, you do them or not because of what's in it for you personally. It would follow that if you could get into heaven only by slaughtering babies, raping women, or flying airliners into buildings, then "vedaray" would engage in those activities ASAP.

That's a primitive, inadequate view of ethics called ethical egoism. It's the sort of thing we see in children before they have (we hope) a sense of community or social conscience.

If you are only motivated by the reward or punishment, that is better than no ethics at all, but it is a far cry from a socially acceptable sense of ethics. It is instead the morality of the sociopath.

Suppose someone puts a gun to your head and threatens to blow your brains out unless you give all the money in your wallet to the homeless. So you donate all your money to the homeless to avoid the bullet. Does that make you a good person? I think not. Suppose I offer to give you a million dollars if you spend an afternoon helping Habitat for Humanity build a home. So you do it and collect the reward. Does that make you a good person? Hardly.

The same is true for those motivated by heaven and hell. If that is your ethics, you need to grow up to a more mature view of right and wrong and trade up to a more responsible view of your place in society and the role of ethics.

[tmiller51]

That question now always reminds me of this video: What if you're wrong?

[Betsy]

or, what if YOU'RE wrong? what if God is not an invisible man in the sky, but something else? What if Jesus was a very enlightened person who taught the principles of righteous living, but wasn't someone who did miracles and rose from the dead, like the mythology purports. There are many, many religions and there's nothing to say that yours is right and others are wrong, or that there isn't some other spiritual answer to your questions. There is no RIGHT answer, only people who think they have it, whatever it is. The BEST answer is simply that there's no proof of anything you're saying.

furthermore, to answer your questions about how the world was created, I highly recommend watching "How the Earth was Made" on discovery channel; it answers your questions about that. It's really very scientific and requires no spiritual magical input at all!

[COMALite J]

Vedaray, you think that it’s a choice between atheism and your particular beliefs? Heck no! There have been hundreds of thousands of religions that we know of! Tens of thousands of variants (denominations, sects, cults, etc.) of Christianity alone!! (33,000 to 38,000 to be more precise.)

What if the atheists and you are wrong? What if Odin, Lord of the Æsir Gods of Asgård, with his brothers Vili and Ve, really did slay the primordial frost giant Ymir, and from his corpse build the mortal world of Midgård (Earth): the sky from his skull, the clouds from his brains, the mountain ranges from his bones, the lakes and rivers and oceans from his icy blood, the soil from his flesh, etc/?

Brother, I urge you to get right with the All-Father now! He hung Himself on the World Ash Tree Yggdrasl for nine days and nine nights, pierced by His own spear Gungnr, sacrificed to Himself. You must follow in His ways, and those of His Glorious Son Balður who was slain by a spear. If you die the “straw death” in bed, or any other death other than in battle dedicated to Him, then you will not be chosen by His Valkyrie for eternal battle in glorious Valhalla. Instead, you will be dragged down to Hel in Nifflheim, where ½-rotted Hela, Goddess of Death, and her demons will pry out your fingernails to use as the hull of the death-ship Nafalgr, which shall sail on the Day of Ragnarök to bring doom.

When you understand why the above sounds silly to you, you’ll also understand why your post sounds silly to us.

Seriously, maybe the Norse were right! What if they were, and you’re wrong? What then? Or what if the Greeks and/or Romans were right? Do you really want to spend eternity in Hades instead of the Elysian Fields? What if the Mayans or Aztecs or Toltecs were right? Or the Hindus? Or even the Jews or Muslims (who believe in the same god you do, albeit differently)?

Or what if one of the 32,999 or more other variants of Christianity than the specific one that you believe in is true? The vast majority of those claim to follow the Bible and have the Holy Spirit, yet they believe different things! How can this be? Of those 33,000+, at least ½ of them claim to be the One True Christianity, and the vast majority of those say that if you belong to or believe in any other variant of Christianity except theirs, you’re every bit as damned as you would be if you died an atheist or Muslim or even Satanist!

It could even be that the real God is one that no human society or even individual has ever known the name of, or even heard of, let alone worshiped! Maybe we’re all wrong! Did you think of that!?

[RobertMadewell]

What if I'm wrong? I guess I'll be up Chat Creek without a paddle!

It's obvious that vedaray just copied and pasted a tract from somewhere. I couldn't find it with google, so he/she may have transcribed it from printed material. I would be willing to bet that vedaray did not use one word of his/her own. Vedaray also posted this same "tract" on the NWA Freethought forum, word for freaking word. Why can't these guys actually use their own words? I doubt that vedaray will be back to respond to our thoughts.

That being said, did you notice the loaded questions and stereotypical assumptions in the first paragraph?

Vedaray, come out and talk to us. This hit and run-copy and paste apollogetics are not impressing anyone. We would love to hear what you have to say, we don't care what some stuffy old apollogist says.

[graybear13]

DOUG
Well, there you have it. 100% self-interest.

Hi all,

It is 100% self-interest by atheists and materialistic (The philsophical theory that physical matter in it's movements and modifications is the only reality and that everything in the universe, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of physical laws.) scientists to deny the existence of God. If there is a God, and the jury is still out on that one, then athiests and materialists will have to rethink their positions on a lot of things and that scares the hell out of them...they think they have a pretty good bead on things.

All of the responses on this thread are like a group of children "whistling past the graveyard" at midnight.

Don't forget...magic was the branch off the evolutionary religious tree which eventually bore the fruit of a scientific age. Belief in astrology led to the development of astronomy, belief in a philosopher's stone led to the mastery of metals, while belief in magic numbers founded the science of mathematics.

Scientists may measure the energy, or force manifestations, of gravitation, light and electricity, but these same scientists can never (scientifically) tell you what these universe phenomena are. Science deals with physical--energy activities; religion deals with eternal values. There always exists the danger that the purley physical scientist may become afflicted with mathematical pride and statistical egotism, not to mention spiritual blindness.

Science lives by the mathematics of the mind. Religious experience is something in human life which is truly supermathematical.

"Better that science be devoted to the
destruction of superstition rather than
attempting the overthrow of religious
faith...human belief in spiritual realities
and divine values."

gray

[tmiller51]

Don't forget...magic was the branch off the evolutionary religious tree which eventually bore the fruit of a scientific age. Belief in astrology led to the development of astronomy, belief in a philosopher's stone led to the mastery of metals, while belief in magic numbers founded the science of mathematics.

Also don't forget, belief in magical powers of albino body parts has led to this: Albinos in East Africa fear for lives after killings

Religious experience is something in human life which is truly supermathematical.

Which, oddly enough, can also be brought about though drug usage (altering the chemistry of the brain).

Tim

[kwlyon]

If there is a God, and the jury is still out on that one, then athiests and materialists will have to rethink their positions on a lot of things and that scares the hell out of them...they think they have a pretty good bead on things.

I disagree in general, Grey. I have no doubt there may be one or two out of a million scientist who feel this way. However I think the majority likely feel as I do--that the existence of a god would be just another fascinating attribute of our reality to be explored. I am quite certain I can speak for the scientific community at large when I say no serious scientist believes they have a "good bead on things". The naive idea that everything that can be invented/discovered has been is an antiquated and ridiculous sentiment that has not prevailed since science was very much in it's infancy. I think you will find most scientist, regardless of their field, stand in awe and humility--very much aware of how little we know about the universe we have woken up in.

Don't forget...magic was the branch off the evolutionary religious tree which eventually bore the fruit of a scientific age. Belief in astrology led to the development of astronomy, belief in a philosopher's stone led to the mastery of metals, while belief in magic numbers founded the science of mathematics.

I am fond of referring to physicist as the modern magicians. Look at the "mastery of the elements" we seem to command! Anyone transported to this time from the 1700's would undoubtably herald us as such to any who would listen upon his return to his own time. However I really do not believe one can say that magic and religious belief bore the fruit of a scientific age. I would argue that it suppressed it. It may have catered to a desire to understand the way the world works however it also fosters a lazy approach to understanding. If anything I would guess it was the continued failure of magic and religion to provide results that ultimately lead us to a more methodological and reasoned approach to the acquisition of knowledge. To address your example of astronomy, I think it likely that astronomy only owes its beginnings to astrology in the since that people were looking to the sky in awe and wonder and, as the mythos of astrology failed to prove itself useful and became to many evidently false, people were left with an unfulfilled desire to understand these bodies in the heavens.

What I am trying to say is, yes, we stumbled around in the dark for a VERY long time. However the explosion of knowledge began before the time of the church...and it was stinted, stopped dead in its tracks and in fact reverted quite substantially, by the church--the dark ages. On the whole I would argue that magic and superstition have done far more to detriment than to aid the station of man. I think this assertion is rather historically evident.

Scientists may measure the energy, or force manifestations, of gravitation, light and electricity, but these same scientists can never (scientifically) tell you what these universe phenomena are. Science deals with physical--energy activities; religion deals with eternal values. There always exists the danger that the purley physical scientist may become afflicted with mathematical pride and statistical egotism, not to mention spiritual blindness.

I have no idea for certain what you are getting at here...but I will try to respond. Let me know if I missed your point entirely. Science does not deal with "what" these things are in the since you are implying. We know what gravity is in the since that it is the force that all things having mass exert on all other things having mass. We are not completely clear on how it comes about during the creation of matter but I think we are on the verge of this understanding. However to know "what" it is, if by this you mean it's purpose, I am not even sure this is a meaningful question. I am certain this is not a meaningful response, however I really don't think I follow what you are talking about here. One thing is for sure....I sure hope I don't become afflicted with "statistical egotism"....do you have any idea what the odds of this happening are?

[Doug]

It is 100% self-interest by atheists and materialistic (The philsophical theory that physical matter in it's movements and modifications is the only reality and that everything in the universe, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of physical laws.) scientists to deny the existence of God.

DOUG
So my observation of the self-interest of the believer in a previous post stung you, didn't it? It hurt you so bad that you decided to just repeat that self-interest assertion about nonbelievers regardless of whether you have any reason to think that atheists have that view.

That is no better than the schoolyard child who shouts "It's not me, it's you."

But you overlook the fact that this observation that is true about you is not true about the vast majority of atheists and scientists. What matters in a mature debate is not what you can say but what you can show. If you can show that scientists reach their conclusions about the universe due to some kind of self-interest and not because of the evidence they find, then you might have a point. If you can show that atheists deny that God exists due to self-interest and not due to a sincere assessment of the evidence, then you might have a point.

So can you show this? I doubt that you can, or that you will try.

[Dardedar]

However the explosion of knowledge began before the time of the church...and it was stinted, stopped dead in its tracks and in fact reverted quite substantially, by the church--the dark ages. On the whole I would argue that magic and superstition have done far more to detriment than to aid the station of man. I think this assertion is rather historically evident.

DAR
It is evident but many go to great lengths to pretend it isn't. They bend over backwards trying to make religious claims and scientific claims compatible or even complimentary. The really pious and misinformed will go so far as to suggest the Bible was/is way ahead in it's scientific understandings but we just couldn't see it until after science demonstrated it's claims and some fundie comes along after the fact and data mines and misreads some snatch of poetry from the psalms.

I can bury you in examples. It's pathetic. This, regarding a book that says the cure for leprosy (The Law of Leprosy, Leviticus 14) is to put a daub of ram's blood on your great right toe.

This all reminds me of one of my favorite Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899) quotes:

"There is no harmony between religion and science. When science was a child, religion sought to strangle it in the cradle. Now that science has attained its youth, and superstition is in its dotage, the trembling, palsied wreck says to the athlete: 'Let us be friends.' It reminds me of the bargain the cock wished to make with the horse: 'Let us agree not to step on each other's feet.'" --Robert Ingersoll

D.
--------------------
"The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and
nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they
can level mountains, and nobody doubts them."
[Joseph Campbell]

[Guest]

So my observation of the self-interest of the believer in a previous post stung you, didn't it? It hurt you so bad that you decided to just repeat that self-interest assertion about nonbelievers regardless of whether you have any reason to think that atheists have that view.

That is no better than the schoolyard child who shouts "It's not me, it's you."

Wrong! I have no interest in defending christian superstitious belief like...Jesus died on a cross so his blood could wash away my sins if I believe in him; if I do that I will be born again and my place in heaven will be secure...that is complete nonsense and just a ploy to get people into the pews giving money to the church.

You probably wont hear a single thing I say, but I'm going to say something anyway...I think you are in some kind of denial because it is true that atheism is self serving. It's an ego trip. You have all the facts and all the statistics on your side but all you do is challenge religion to an argument and attempt the overthrow of religious faith. Atheism is a kind of statistical egotism... The only reason I responded by repeating your assertion was...."I'm rubber and your glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you." :lol: Seriously...I saw your assertion as being very hypocritical so I had to say something. "At that point I had the right to remain silent, but I didin't have the ability." :lol:

I know there are many unscrupulous churches out there. I'm sure that the albino murders for money that Tim talked about are superstitions connected to some church that is perverting true religion. True religion and science are our only weapons against this kind of ignorance.

Our evolution is still under way and our understanding of science and religion is moving in a positive direction, it's just that sometimes I wish it would move a little bit faster and I think it could if science and religion worked more closely together.

Think of it as a tree...each discipline of science and religion is a branch of the tree...God is the tree...So really science and religion are pieces of God; the pieces of truth that help us to see and know the tree itself. In 3D.

I understand that the churches of the world have problems with credibility but so does science...lets talk about how science has been used by the war machine to create more and more lethal weapons...Now I fear the LHC is some kind of anti-matter producing machine. I wonder how they were able to get their hands on 10billion dollars to go chasing after some God particle??? Seems like a long shot...I'd almost be willing to bet that some of the fund raising was done based on the fact that anti-matter would be produced at a higher rate than currently. What would happen if you dropped a BB sized (0.46cm diameter) piece of anti-matter on the ground? I think you have some math on that...right?

gray

[Doug]

I think you are in some kind of denial because it is true that atheism is self serving. It's an ego trip. You have all the facts and all the statistics on your side but all you do is challenge religion to an argument and attempt the overthrow of religious faith.

DOUG writes:
Well, the evidence is right there staring you in the face. If we do have all the facts and statistics on our side, isn't that the best explanation of why it is we feel as if we have the right answer? We are not on an ego trip, we are on a reality trip.

Join us in celebrating reality. This is your invitation to the real world.

Atheism is a kind of statistical egotism... The only reason I responded by repeating your assertion was...."I'm rubber and your glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you." Seriously...I saw your assertion as being very hypocritical so I had to say something. "At that point I had the right to remain silent, but I didin't have the ability."

DOUG writes:
If we do have all the facts and statistics on our side, wouldn't it be mean for us to keep the evidence to ourselves? Isn't trying to inform people by challenging them to debate in order to present our case the exact opposite of being selfish?

So it is not hypocritical. I don't just say things about you because you said them about me. I say things based on the evidence. We are trying to inform you about science and its methods and facts.

[Dardedar]

DAR
Has no one noticed that this is all just Greybear failing to comprehend Doug's actual point regarding ethics and self-interest? Note: Doug said the following directly in response Vedaray:

DOUG
Well, there you have it. 100% self-interest. If there is no carrot or stick, there is no ethics, on that person's view. You don't do good or avoid doing wrong because those actions are right or wrong, you do them or not because of what's in it for you personally. It would follow that if you could get into heaven only by slaughtering babies, raping women, or flying airliners into buildings, then "vedaray" would engage in those activities ASAP.

DAR
See the context above.

Greybear's response is an emotional one based upon his misreading or misunderstanding of Doug's actual comments and what he was responding to.

D.

[graybear13]

If there is a God, and the jury is still out on that one, then athiests and materialists will have to rethink their positions on a lot of things and that scares the hell out of them...they think they have a pretty good bead on things.

I disagree in general, Grey. I have no doubt there may be one or two out of a million scientist who feel this way. However I think the majority likely feel as I do--that the existence of a god would be just another fascinating attribute of our reality to be explored. I am quite certain I can speak for the scientific community at large when I say no serious scientist believes they have a "good bead on things". The naive idea that everything that can be invented/discovered has been is an antiquated and ridiculous sentiment that has not prevailed since science was very much in it's infancy. I think you will find most scientist, regardless of their field, stand in awe and humility--very much aware of how little we know about the universe we have woken up in.

Don't forget...magic was the branch off the evolutionary religious tree which eventually bore the fruit of a scientific age. Belief in astrology led to the development of astronomy, belief in a philosopher's stone led to the mastery of metals, while belief in magic numbers founded the science of mathematics.

I am fond of referring to physicist as the modern magicians. Look at the "mastery of the elements" we seem to command! Anyone transported to this time from the 1700's would undoubtably herald us as such to any who would listen upon his return to his own time. However I really do not believe one can say that magic and religious belief bore the fruit of a scientific age. I would argue that it suppressed it. It may have catered to a desire to understand the way the world works however it also fosters a lazy approach to understanding. If anything I would guess it was the continued failure of magic and religion to provide results that ultimately lead us to a more methodological and reasoned approach to the acquisition of knowledge. To address your example of astronomy, I think it likely that astronomy only owes its beginnings to astrology in the since that people were looking to the sky in awe and wonder and, as the mythos of astrology failed to prove itself useful and became to many evidently false, people were left with an unfulfilled desire to understand these bodies in the heavens.

What I am trying to say is, yes, we stumbled around in the dark for a VERY long time. However the explosion of knowledge began before the time of the church...and it was stinted, stopped dead in its tracks and in fact reverted quite substantially, by the church--the dark ages. On the whole I would argue that magic and superstition have done far more to detriment than to aid the station of man. I think this assertion is rather historically evident.

Scientists may measure the energy, or force manifestations, of gravitation, light and electricity, but these same scientists can never (scientifically) tell you what these universe phenomena are. Science deals with physical--energy activities; religion deals with eternal values. There always exists the danger that the purley physical scientist may become afflicted with mathematical pride and statistical egotism, not to mention spiritual blindness.

I have no idea for certain what you are getting at here...but I will try to respond. Let me know if I missed your point entirely. Science does not deal with "what" these things are in the since you are implying. We know what gravity is in the since that it is the force that all things having mass exert on all other things having mass. We are not completely clear on how it comes about during the creation of matter but I think we are on the verge of this understanding. However to know "what" it is, if by this you mean it's purpose, I am not even sure this is a meaningful question. I am certain this is not a meaningful response, however I really don't think I follow what you are talking about here. One thing is for sure....I sure hope I don't become afflicted with "statistical egotism"....do you have any idea what the odds of this happening are?

Hi Kevin

When I said having a good bead on things I was talking about physics aiming all of it's resources at justifying it's statistical analysis through the big bang theory...I didn't mean for you to take it personally.

The present paradigm or focus is a pretty good bead.
Just need to change thr focus a little... I think it's aimed in the right direction.

As far as what "it" is that causes the warp in space that we call gravity or what light is or electricity or God?
Maybe that should be left up to religion to make the connection...although understanding dark matter will help science take a giant step closer. Science and religion need to work together if we are to find the UFT.

It's going to take a little faith.

Maybe another kind of statistical egotism could be thinking about how present day science would look to the 18th century without thinking about how it would look to the 23rd century.

"God is good , beer is good....and people are crazy"

Grey

[kwlyon]

Maybe that should be left up to religion to make the connection...although understanding dark matter will help science take a giant step closer. Science and religion need to work together if we are to find the UFT.

I agree that understanding dark matter would be a great accomplishment. First I think we need to understand more about the nature of normal matter. I often wonder if dark mater exist only because we do not understand exactly what matter is. Be that as it may, I would not hold my breath on religion making any contribution towards resolving this mystery. Religion does not have a very good track record of furthering our understanding of the nature of the universe. It seems to me that any time science and religion get together it is to the detriment of both.

"God is good , beer is good....and people are crazy"

Grey

I haven't taken anything personally. Just putting my two cents in. Oh...and your quote is wrong. I am pretty sure it should be, "Beer is great, people are good, and God is crazy".....

Kevin

[graybear13]

"God is good , beer is good....and people are crazy"

Grey

I haven't taken anything personally. Just putting my two cents in. Oh...and your quote is wrong. I am pretty sure it should be, "Beer is great, people are good, and God is crazy".....

Kevin

You are right...I have misquoted...
what I was trying to say was "God is great, beer is good...and people are crazy."

Gray

[kwlyon]

Sorry Grey...I wasn't finished with that post yet!

Kevin