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Dardedar
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From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

DAR
From time to time I get an interesting email comment to the fayfreethinker@yahoo.com address. If they bring up an interesting topic
I may post some of them here, (with the persons address and identification removed).

***
Wed, 30 May 2007

-- MT_mail@_______ wrote:

> Isa. 40:22 (The Hebrew word employed here means a sphere).


DAR
Hello MT. Thanks for the response. This issue has come up before. My
friend Yoel lived in Israel for many years and taught English there. He
is fluent in modern Hebrew of course but also well versed in biblical
Hebrew which he tells me is different. My other friend Tod asked Yoel
the following question. See Yoel's response below:

***
TOD
I have a question regarding Isaiah 40:22:
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the
inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in..." The fact
that it is said the sky is "spreadeth...out as a tent" implies to me that
the author believed that the earth was a flat circle with a domed sky above (like an upside down tuperware bowl with a lid on it, the lid being the surface of the earth). Every tent I have ever seen had a flat floor.
A friend of mine (Christian of course) has told me that the Hebrew
word used in this passage isn't the usual word for circle, but instead means a sphere. Thus he argues that the bible displays scientific
foreknowledge by correctly saying that the earth is a sphere. I have read in various sources however that the ancient Hebrews had no word for sphere. So what is the word in question, and what does it mean? How do you interpret this verse?

YOEL responds:
"He is a liar, and he doesn't know what he is talking about. Plain and
simple. The word used for circle is "khug" which means "a circle." or
"something in the form of a circle". The root khet-gimel means "to go
around." There is another word 'Igul, which means the geometric form of
a circle.
Modern Hebrew words for modern terms have been expounded from
Biblical Hebrew, so really, Modern Hebrew is mostly Biblical. The
Biblical roots were just plugged into alternate and unused Biblical
structures to create new words.

The knug root was modernized in the following:

Lekhayeg- to dial a phone
khaig - phone dial
khiug - the action of dialing

As you see, they all denote a circular shape.

The word for sphere is Kadur."
***

DAR
So in response, the word employed at Isaiah 40:22 does not mean
sphere. We have lots more about this here:

http://fayfreethinkers.com/tracts/flatearth.shtml

The ancient Hebrews thought the world was flat like a pizza. Just
like their neighbors.

cheers,

Darrel
--------------------

DAR
MT has not responded.
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Post by Dardedar »

DAR
Just received this today. I wrote a welcoming response offering to assist.

***
Hello,
My name is _______ and I am a Junior at _____ High School. I am currently forming, with a few friends and a teacher sponsoring, a school club, a Freethinker Society. My fellow founders and I hope to create an atmosphere of intellectual stimulation and open mindedness without fear of persecution by indoctrinated theists. Luckily I discovered the Fayetteville Freethinkers. I'm glad to know that there is a group of open minded people nearby who have successfully implemented such an organization. I hope to attend the May 31 meeting with a few of my peers, fellow mature founders of our club, to take note on how to run such a meeting. I'm not 100% sure if its an open invitation to the meeting, though it seems to be on the website. If there is any way you can allow myself and a handful of peers into the next meeting; we would be truly grateful.
Truthfully, I'm not sure if this email will actually be read, or if it is just a way to make it onto the mailing list (please add me), but I hope someone will get this message and understand our cause.

<________ _______>


********
DARREL
Hello _______,

What a wonderful email! First off, I can assure you of two things:

You and all of your friends are welcome to come to our meetings (they
have always been 100% open to the public). We have lots of room. And,
if you like, we will do whatever we can to help establish your group
and make it a success. For instance we have people who could come and
give quality presentations (on various topics) at a meeting if you
would like (some are professors at the U of A and/or NWACC). We also
have lots of written material and some video material that may be
useful to you.

If you would like to give a little presentation/announcement at our
next meeting telling everyone about your new group we may find other
ways that our members can assist your group (we actually don't have a
formal membership but there are a lot of regulars and some live in
Rogers).

My name is Darrel Henschell. On our website, (picture at the bottom) I
am the guy on the right. ...SNIP...

Anyway, feel free to call me
anytime to discuss details about this and how we might assist the
success of your group. Perhaps we could meet for lunch. We have been
doing this for about ten years now and have learned a lot of things.

kind regards,

Darrel Henschell
co-founder Fayetteville Freethinkers

ph. 442-6738

ps I am sending a copy of this on to Doug Krueger, our other
co-founder. He teaches philosophy and World Religion at _______.
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

> Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth has mounted a
> campaign to offer counter evidence for the government's
> latest bizarre theory about what caused the WTC7 collapse
> (and by inference the other tower collapses as well.)
>
> http://www.ae911truth.org/

DAR
Excerpts from my response to this email:

***
DAR
Putting together lists of experts on a petition list means very little and is, for instance, a favorite tactic of the anti-global warming groups. You could put together a petition list of people who think the moon landing did not occur. Some of the people on such a list would hold Ph D's. The rot goes all the way to the top.

Cherry picked lists of "scientists" responding to who knows what claim on a petition drive is not remotely how science is done. It's how political activist groups make noise, stir things up and confuse people. If you think there is *anything* of merit on the 9/11truth site, try posting it and I'll try again. The information I have already provided [on the forum] probably already deals with it. Please read those first.

I looked at this site again briefly and still struggle to see how anyone can take such claims, and obvious errors of reasoning, seriously.

For instance, on the issue of foreknowledge. If it could be shown, as they incredibly claim, that a large percentage (!) of the press were somehow in on it and knew of WTC 7's collapse in advance, that would be something (although a simpler explanation would be that it was burning and someone had warned of diesel tanks full of fuel). So I read their blurb on this here.

When I get to the part where they are supposed to provide the *evidence* for their claims I am instead treated to this disclaimer:

"Unfortunately, Archive.org made the footage archive inaccessible to the public shortly after the BBC foreknowledge story was publicized."

How convenient.

One of articles at the links I already provided deals specifically with the outrageous claims of this group.

***

Sent separately:

Oh also, best to not be fooled by their headline claiming 431 "architectural and engineering professionals."

When you go to the page which actually has the list of ones they have (supposedly) verified... see here:

Link

You will find the list is narrowed to... 36. I counted.

I submit that in a country of 300 million, you can find 36 "professionals" to agree the moon is made of the finest cheese.

Also note that by signing this petition these people are simply endorsing the notion that another investigation should be done. And I agree. As soon as we pay off the national debt, it should be the first priority.

regards,

Darrel
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

-- On Thu, 8/21/08, William... wrote:

> DAR,
> Well here's some piffle that you as a piano tuner can
> test in 30 seconds.
> I'd be interested in the results since a
> "lift" would be welcome as
> classes start.
> Let me know how it works out.
> (And, keep an open mind but don't let any brains fall
> out!)

***
My response:

> DAR,
> Well here's some piffle that you as a piano tuner can
> test in 30 seconds.

DAR
What? You want me staggering around out in the dark of night with tuning forks in my hands? I'd scare the goats. They would think I was coming to tune them.


> I'd be interested in the results since a
> "lift" would be welcome as
> classes start.
> Let me know how it works out.
> (And, keep an open mind but don't let any brains fall
> out!)

DAR
I really doubt this lady is hearing anything other than what she wants to hear. Sound is much more complex than this. Especially the high frequency chirps of little bugs. With a piano, our ears "melt down" all of upper harmonics or "upper partials" and give us a pretty clear fundamental. That's what we hear the strongest but all the rest is there vibrating away. With practice and training we can make coincidental partials stand out. These are all the little frequencies piano tuners have to fiddle with to get them to all get along with their neighbors (the other notes). My computer does all of this calculation for the entire piano in a fraction of a second, after listening to and recording 22 sample frequencies.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that crickets have been selected to have the loudest (sexiest) chirp they can muster and that this would also be mathematically something that compares to some interval in our musical scale. I would expect it. Our musical scale is largely based upon nature and math. If you take one note, the most musical and mathematically significant additional (or powerful) note you can add would be an octave (doubling). The next most significant would be the fifth. This is no big deal. If a cricket looking for sexy-time can't figure that out, then he isn't a very good musician is he?

However:

A) I have VERY little confidence this lady knows anything about pitch, has any sense of pitch and is correctly finding a correlation between her tuning forks and the brief high pitched chirp of a cricket. VERY LITTLE. And that's just each tuning fork by itself. I have even less confidence that she is correctly finding a correlation between the 1/5 interval she is hearing with her forks and with the crickets. She plays her C tuning fork and her ear finds something in the chirp that agrees with it. This is to be expected. Same with the other note. If she were to take her tuning forks into her garage and listen to them along with the sound of her car idling there is a VERY good chance she would also find her tuning forks can coincide with car rumbling sounds which sound like a "perfect fifth," or at least a decent third. Our brain and ears are very good at finding such little patterns when we are looking for them. It's not so likely she would be making healthy healing claims about listening to a "perfect fifth" coming out her car. I wonder why?

A good test would be for her to reach into a bag of randomly scrambled tuning forks and then stagger around in the dark listening to her crickets. Two things would almost certainly happen:

--she wouldn't be able to figure out which two forks represent a fifth without looking at the labels

--all of the forks would find some agreement with the chirps. I would put money on her not being able to find the same two forks she says now are agreeing with the crickets, without looking at the labels. She probably couldn't find one of them.

B) If this bit about the "chee chee" cricket sound having some kind of a fifth interval is true, it means nothing and the idea that this has a healing power... well, you know. If she thinks she feels better, then she does feel better.

I found this article online and it has a comment thread. Maybe I'll add something.

One fellow added this observation:
A funny coincidence, because most heavy metal music relies on what we musicians and/or rock enthusiasts call the "power chord," which is a root and a perfect 5th above it. And yet many people, myself not included, find this style of music to be stress-inducing. Perhaps it's the intention behind the resonance, and not the interval itself.
D.
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Doug »

DOUG writes:
My wife sent me this e-mail she had received and asked me to write a response. It is a smear on Muslims and Obama, trying to use baseless fear tactics to keep people from voting for Obama.

Because the letter is probably getting wide circulation among the right, I have posted my response here. Feel free to send it to anyone who sends you the "Can Muslims Be Good Americans?" e-mail.

====================================

The letter begins:
CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD AMERICANS?
This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to Finish and send it on to anyone who will read it. Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities. Can a good Muslim be a good American? This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:
DOUG
This is definitely not from a Muslim because it contains many errors about Islam. No Muslim would make such obvious errors.

The "response" is most likely not from someone who has worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years--or else it is someone who made sure never to learn about what was going on outside of his or her office for 20 years. You can't work in a Muslim country for 20 years and be this stupid about Islam unless you are either a hermit or a dunce. Either way, the "friend" has no credibility, as we see below.

The "friend" wrote:
Theologically - no . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia
DOUG responds:
This is no different than saying that Christians can't be good Americans because their allegiance is to the God of Abraham, the storm god of a middle-eastern Bronze age culture. (YHWH, the god of the Bible, appears in the Canaanite pantheon as a storm god.)

But allegiance to a divine being has never been seen as a bar to being a good American. Even though our American constitution is thoroughly secular, it allows for religious belief to be compatible with being a good American.

The "friend" wrote:
Religiously - no. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)
DOUG responds:
Many Christians would say that no other religion except Christianity is accepted. Jesus said that there is no way to God except through him:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Same as what is claimed about Islam. So? If Christianity is compatible with being a good American even though it does not accept other religions (in its fundamentalist form, especially), then one cannot fault Islam for having an identical view.

The "friend" wrote:
Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.
DOUG responds:
The allegiance is to Allah, not specifically to the Qur'an or the Five Pillars. That would be like saying that a Christian's allegiance is to the Lord's Prayer.

And the Five Pillars, things expected of a good Muslim, are:
1. Reciting the Shahadah, the creed: "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is his messenger."
2. Salat: Daily prayer five times a day.
3. Zakat: Giving to the poor.
4. Sawm: Fasting during religious holidays.
5. The Hajj, the pilgrimage: At least once in your life, if you can afford it, travel to Mecca.

There isn't anything there that is incompatible with being a good American. Catholics and Protestants do pretty much the same thing, except for the fasting (especially Protestants). Many Christians make pilgrimages to the Holy Land or to Catholic shrines too.

The "friend" wrote:
Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.
DOUG responds:
One does not have allegiance to Mecca in Islam. They pray toward Mecca as a ritual. It is a reminder of the history of Islam. Just as Christians have the last supper as a memorial to their religious history, the Muslims have their remembrances. But just as it would be absurd to say that one has allegiance to the Last Supper, Muslims do not have allegiance to Mecca, or to its mayor, etc.

The "friend" wrote:
Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews
DOUG responds:
No. The Qur'an says that Muslims must harbor and protect refugees who are of other religions, allow them to practice their religions, and in fact Muslims protected Jews and Christians at various times throughout history.

The Qur'an says:
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith to the Day of
Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. Qur'an 3:55.

Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. Qur'an 2:136

DOUG cont'd:
Christians and Jews are "people of the Book" (those who adhere to previous revelations) and are not considered unbelievers.

The Qur'an does say that Muslims should not count on Christians and Jews for support and thus should not form alliances with them (Q 5:51), but this can be interpreted in a number of ways. In any case, it does not say that Christians and Jews are automatically enemies, nor does it say that Muslims cannot be their friends.

This is much better, morally speaking, than what we find in the Bible:

Deuteronomy 7:2
"...and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."

There are many such verses to be found in the Bible. At least the Qur'an does not advocate wholesale genocide for the mere sake of possessing land, as found in the Bible. But such verses do not make Christians and Jews unfit to be good Americans. By the same token, similar (but less violent) verses in the Qur'an should not make Muslims unfit to be good Americans.

Note: The New Testament forbids believers to welcome nonChristians into their homes--or even to bid them welcome ("wish them godspeed" (King James Version)):

2 John 1:9-11 (NIV) Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

So the Christian has little room to talk about whose holy scriptures forbid interacting with those of other religions.

The "friend" wrote:
Politically - no. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , the great Satan.
DOUG responds:
Muslims must "submit" to Allah alone. They do not "submit" to mullahs any more than Christians "submit" to their priest or pastor. And mullahs differ in their views, so not all of them teach the destruction of Israel or the destruction of America. In fact, American Muslim imams (lay preachers) do not teach the destruction of the United States (although there are some who do) any more than Christian preachers teach the destruction of the United States (although there are some who do).

The "friend" wrote:
Domestically - no. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34)
DOUG responds:
a. Muslims are not instructed to marry four women. Muslims can marry up to four women, but typically one is all that a married Muslim will have. Polygamy is referenced with favor in many Bible verses, but this does not make Christians and Jews unfit to be good Americans. Note, too, that the Bible never denounces polygamy as a marital institution.

In the one place in which polygamy is forbidden in the New Testament, it only applies to a man who wants to be a deacon in the church (1 Timothy 3:12). Deuteronomy 17:17 says that the king should not take "many wives," but it is unclear what that means, and again the prohibition is limited to the man in that office.
b. Yes, the Qur'an says:
"And as for those women whose ill-will you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them" (Q 4:34).

Horrible conduct, true. But beating one's wife is illegal in the United States, so we should expect that Muslims will not treat their wives in that way for the same reason we expect that Christians will not be polygamists even though it is sanctioned by the Bible.

King David had a half-dozen wives and numerous concubines (2 Samuel 5:13), yet this was not considered a sin (1 Kings 15:5).

God himself, according to the Bible, endorsed polygamy. God tells King David: "I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more" (2 Sam. 12:8-9). The laws of Moses do not prohibit polygamy. Instead, they regulate it: "If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money" (Deut. 21:10-11. See also v.15). So according to the Bible, when God was building up a society from scratch, and could have created any laws that he wanted, he allowed polygamy as a marital option. Yet we do not say on this account that Jews and Christians are unfit to be good Americans. Similarly, we should not say that Muslims are unfit to be good Americans even though their holy scriptures likewise sanction these illegal acts.

The "friend" wrote:
Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical
principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
DOUG responds:
a. The Bible is not the basis for the consitution.

Perhaps one should heed the founding fathers:
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by President John Adams

From "The Christian Nation Myth":
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... /myth.html

== begin quotation ===
The Reverend Bird Wilson, who was just a few years removed from being a contemporary of the so-called founding fathers, said further in the above-mentioned sermon that "the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson] _not a one had professed a belief in Christianity_" (John Remsberg, Six Historic Americans, pg. 120).

Dr. Wilson's sermon, which was published in the Albany Daily Advertiser the month it was delivered also made an interesting observation that flatly contradicts the frantic efforts of present-day fundamentalists to make the "founding fathers" orthodox Christians.

"When the war was over and the victory over our enemies won, and the blessings and happiness of liberty and peace were secured, the Constitution was framed and God was neglected. He was not merely forgotten. He was absolutely voted out of the Constitution. The proceedings, as published by Thompson, the secretary, and the history of the day, show that the question was gravely debated whether God should be in the Constitution or not, and after a solemn debate he was deliberately voted out of it.... There is not only in the theory of our government no recognition of God's laws and sovereignty, but its practical operation, its administration, has been conformable to its theory. Those who have been called to administer the government have not been men making any public profession of Christianity.... Washington was a man of valor and wisdom. He was esteemed by the whole world as a great and good man; but he was not a professing Christian" (Remsberg, pp. 120-121).
===end quotation ===

b. The Constitution is not based on Biblical principles.
The American Revolution itself would never have been fought had the founding fathers been Christians. Paul's words in the New Testament prohibit revolution:

Romans 13:1-6:
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. (See also Titus 3:1-2 and 1 Peter 2:13-17.)

There are many rules in the Bible that are contrary to U.S. law (prohibition on blasphemy v. free speech, separation of powers v. Biblical monarchy, democratic society v. Biblical monarchy, amendments to the Constitution allowed v. no amendments to the Bible, presidents are elected v. Biblical kings inherit power, etc.) that easily refute the notion that the Bible is the basis for the U.S. Constitution. The core principles of the Constitution go against the core principles of government found in the Bible.

So in the same way that we do not say that Christians cannot be good Americans because their scriptures run contrary to the basic principles of the United States, if Muslims rejected the Bible (they do not), this obviously would not prohibit them from being good Americans, contrary to what the "friend" writes.

The "friend" wrote:
Philosophically - no. . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
DOUG responds:
Until about 200 years ago, every Christian government was a monarchy. But that is irrelevant, just as it is irrelevant that Muslim governments in other countries differ from our own government. This says nothing about whether Muslims can be good citizens of democratic countries. We have people in the United States who are good citizens and who have emigrated from non-Muslim dictatorships, from Communist countries, etc. The "friend" has a view as absurd as saying that Chinese can't be good Americans because China is not a democracy.

And it is false that Islam and democracy cannot coexist. Malaysia, Pakistan, Algeria, and Bangladesh are democracies with Islam as the state religion. In addition, the U.S. government is attempting to create an Islamic democracy in Iraq. If this is impossible, the author of the article in question should notify George W. Bush as soon as possible.

The "friend" wrote:
Spiritually - no. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is
loving and kind...

DOUG responds:
a. "One nation under God" was not originally in the Pledge of Allegiance. It was added by Congress in 1954 because of pressure from the Knights of Columbus. This was during the cold war, and it tells us more about fear of the atheistic Soviets than about the history of the United States, as we already saw earlier in this letter.
b. The Christian God is not always loving and kind. From the slaughter of the firstborn (at the Passover--Exodus 12 (so much for being pro-life!)) to the divinely commanded genocidal campaigns of conquest (Joshua 10:40 "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded.") to the New Testament threat of eternal torture in hell, the kindness of the God of the Bible, at best, remains a small part of the divine activities described in the Bible.

The "friend" wrote:
...while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.
DOUG responds:
Name #47: "The Loving One."

The Qur'an also says:

Qur'an 11:90: "Hence, ask your Sustainer to forgive you your sins, and then turn towards Him in repentance - for, verily, my Sustainer is a dispenser of grace, a fount of love!"
Qur'an 85:14: And He alone is truly-forgiving, all-embracing in His love..."

Name #5: The Peace.
Name #14: The Always Forgiving.

In the Bible, on one occasion God says his name is "Jealous." (Ex. 34:14) It would not be good for the "friend" to start talking of divine names...

The "friend" wrote:
Therefore, after much study and deliberation....

Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans.
DOUG responds:
Given that there ARE good Muslims, and that the above arguments have been refuted, this is patently untrue.

The "friend" wrote:
Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the
better it will be for our country and our future. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand .. .
DOUG responds:
a. It has just been shown that the main claims in this person's letter are false.
b. The present administration has taken great pains to try to assure Muslims that we are not in a religious war.

The "friend" wrote:
And Barack Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President? You have GOT to be kidding! Wake up America !

DOUG responds:
Barack Obama is not a Muslim. He has never been a Muslim. His biographical details are not hidden, they are available in the mainstream media and many online sites, and it is crystal clear that he is not a Muslim. He is a Christian. He has gone to a Christian church for years, and he has had his children baptized. Anyone who still thinks Obama is a Muslim is either lying or inexcusably ignorant.

The "friend" wrote:
Obama even says if he wins the election, he will be sworn in on the Quran---not a Bible!
DOUG responds:
This is false. More lies about Obama. He has said no such thing, nor even hinted at it. Why would he? He's not a Muslim.

The "friend" wrote:
Footnote: He was sworn in on the Quran for his current office and he refuses to pledge allegiance to the United States or put his hand over his heart when the National Anthem is played!

DOUG responds:
No, Obama was not sworn in on a Qur'an for this or any other office or job. No such thing ever took place. It is just conservative, Republican lies. And he often puts his hand over his heart when saying the pledge or hearing the national anthem, just not always. As with many other good Americans.

The "friend" wrote:
The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within. Hello! Having a Muslim president would seem to fit the bill! Will you trust this man with our national secrets?
DOUG responds:
It is not clear who may or may not have said that the Muslims will destroy us from within, but even if some Muslim said this, there is no reason to believe that Obama is such a person. Especially since he is not a Muslim.

Interestingly, Sarah Palin, earlier this year, gave the opening address for the Alaskan Independence Party, which advocates secession from the United States. (How's that for putting country first?) The founder of the group, Joe Vogler, gave a speech in which he said that "the fires of Hell are as icebergs compared to my hate for the American government." He also said, "I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."

Lynette Clark, the chairman of the AIP, tells ABC News that Palin and her husband Todd were members in 1994, even attending the 1994 statewide convention in Wasilla. The AIP rejects the legality of the Alaskan statehood vote. So Palin doesn't even want to be an American? Her friends believe that Alaska isn't even legitimately a state of the United States!

Palin kicked off the 2008 AIP convention EARLIER THIS YEAR by delivering the welcoming address and telling the AIP to "keep up the good work."

See the video of her AIP welcoming address here:
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/arc ... _party.php

Interestingly, the AIP vice chairman, Dexter Carter, explained at the convention that party members "must infiltrate the other two parties and push for the cause of Alaskan independence."

So which candidate is KNOWN to be affiliated with a group that hates the U.S? Palin.

Which candidate's friends want to break up the U.S. as a nation of 50 states? Palin. And they want to do it "from within."

The "friend" wrote:
SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.

THE MARINES WANT THIS TO ROLL ALL OVER THE U.S.

DOUG responds:
I hope the Marines do not want these lies to be spread all over the U.S. Now that it has been shown that the author of that letter has no credibility, perhaps this rebuttal will find its way to all those who have been taken in by the shamelessly untrue letter. From the false origin given for the letter, to the lies about the Qur'an, to the lies about the Bible, and the lies about Obama, and so much more, the letter to which I have responded has no place among those who want to hear the truth and make up their own minds about Muslims, Obama, the present elections, and related issues.

_____________________________
Doug Krueger
Fayetteville, Arkansas
"We could have done something important Max. We could have fought child abuse or Republicans!" --Oona Hart (played by Victoria Foyt), in the 1995 movie "Last Summer in the Hamptons."
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by tmiller51 »

Doug,

My wife's gotten that email before, a few months ago. That email shook me up like nothing before and really, to be honest, really lowered my outlook on humanity. Great response.

Tim
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Re: From the Mailbag

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DAR
Trouble is, some republicans might see it now for the first time and think "hey, that's neat" and extract the debunk from it and send it around. Truth means nothing to so many of these people.

I was just thinking the other day of all of the bogus lies spread about Al Gore that I debunked. And then, multiple times I would get stupid Dan Quayle quotes falsely attributed to Gore. Right-wingers would pass these around. I knew Quayle said these things because they were famous and I had a video of Quayle actually saying these things. Quayle was a gaffe machine of course, and Bush has been at least 10x as bad. There are no pages devoted to idiotic things Bill Clinton has said, or John Kerry, or Al Gore or Obama. And there won't be. So they will stoop to taking some of their own worst gaffes and attributing them to a democrat. I've seen it over and over.

And then, case in point, this wandered in the other day from my right-wing friend Bill. An email entitled "Idiot Quote of the Century." My response included here:
From: Bill
> Subject: Quote of the Century
> Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 11:13 PM
> >Idiot Quote of the Century
> >
> >"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in
> the history of the world.
> >I hope you'll join with me as we try to change
> it."
> >
> >- Barack Obama


DAR
Try again Huckleberry, it's bogus:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/change.asp

D.
----------------------------------------
"The same party that brought you two terms
of George Bush and Dick Cheney will ask
for a third. And we are here because we love
this country too much to let the next four
years look like the last eight."
-- Obama

A "real" quote. My favorite kind.
DAR
They just lie and lie and lie. If you are going to call something "idiot Quote of the Century" you would think you would have a really doosey and you would think they would take the time to get it right. I have never seen the left send around lying bullshit like this. They will send around useless National Public Radio petitions (used to anyway) and bogus virus warnings but I have never gotten or even seen a nasty dishonest smear-job email coming from the left.

D.
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

DAR
In the email today:

***
my name is [CB] and I have a demon living in my room calling itself invincible I would like to try to claim your $1000 prize I have video tape and it said this morning it will not leave so if you want to talk to it you can my phone is = 303 762 97** thank you
***

DAR
Maybe the demon could give a presentation at the next meeting?
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Doug »

Darrel wrote:DAR
In the email today:

***
my name is [CB] and I have a demon living in my room calling itself invincible I would like to try to claim your $1000 prize I have video tape and it said this morning it will not leave so if you want to talk to it you can my phone is = 303 762 97** thank you
***

DAR
Maybe the demon could give a presentation at the next meeting?
DOUG
Does the demon accept collect calls? Or perhaps we can use someone's cell phone that has unlimited long distance.

Also: Is the demon named Invincible, or was it just describing itself as such? I think there may be some medication that could make it go away, if taken under a doctor's supervision, so I would be skeptical that this demon is actually invincible.
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

From the FFRF web site:

February 9, 2009, Arkansas
Dan Barker will talk at Hendrix College in Conway, Arkansas, at 7pm. Details to follow. Sponsored by the Hendrix Humanist Association. Contact student organizer Alex Khalaf at KhalafAM@hendrix.edu

Gary
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

DAR
Perhaps of interest.

****
Hi,

I thought your members might well be interested in my latest book, called "Stardust: Our Cosmic Origins" which has just been released in America (you should find it on Amazon.com or through any good bookshop.) It is currently selling well in England and has had very good reviews so far.

Please visit the book’s web site to get a better idea of its content and style. I can also be emailed from there. www.stardustorigins.co.uk

It was designed as an antidote to the recent rise in creationism, fundamentalism and stupid theories like intelligent design but it is not a negative book, it achieves its aim by clearly demonstrating the awe inspiring nature of the fantastic story that science has to tell – a world view free from mysticism and superstition.

It takes the reader on a journey from the big bang to the present day and beyond exploring on the way things like the nature of reality, evolution, how the mind works, artificial intelligence and many other topics. All clearly presented for the intelligent and curious lay readership.

I sincerely hope you find this interesting.

Kind regards,

Stephen Welch
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

> From: J
> Subject: Good morning. I have a question.
> To: fayfreethinkers@yahoo.com
> Date: Thursday, September 10, 2009,
>
>
> Hello Darrel,
>
> First off I'd like to introduce myself, my name is [J].
> I have attended a few meetings and I would like to thank you
> for giving us freethinkers the opportunity to get together
> and share our views.
>
> My question is, are Arkansas public school teachers allowed
> teach about the bible and hand out homework on it?

DAR
I am quite sure that in the context of an English or world religions class, the answer is yes. This is an opportunity ripe for abuse of course and there are no end of "true believer" fundamentalist teachers here in Arkansas willing to get away with whatever they can, legal or not, in order to save more souls. It's all we can do to keep them from teaching creationism, in science class! It happens, a lot.


> I have a
> younger sibling which has also attended the freethinkers
> meetings and he called me asking me this question. I did
> some research on it but I couldn't find anything stating
> that they couldn't, at least not in this state.

DAR
I think class instruction using the Bible as an example of literature is fine, as long as it is based upon mainstream scholarship (which is all on our side). They cannot (or should not be allowed) to teach theology or doctrinal/faith issues.

You can read about this case in Texas which was resolved in our favor:

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/bi ... hools.html


> My
> younger brother brought it to his teachers attention and he
> was told that since the bible is literature then he is able
> to teach about it in his English class.

DAR
I think the teacher, strictly speaking, is right. If the teacher starts discussing doctrine, theology or faith issues, then the student should complain.

The group that knows the precedent for this issue, inside and out, is the ACLU. You can also call them and ask them. See also the additional links at the link I provided above.

Incidentally, being a piano technician I am in schools all the time and get to see the religious, specifically overtly Christian music that music teachers push on the students constantly. They seem to do this without any restriction whatsoever.


> Thank you for taking the time to read my email and I hope
> to hear from you at your earliest convenience.
>
> [J]

DAR
Hope this helps.

D.
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

-- On Sat, 11/7/09, VM wrote:
> From: VM
> Subject: Fw: Please take the time to view this nun's information about swine flu
> Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009
>
> I watched them all and think that this info is very
> important. Take the
> time to watch all of it. Basic advice would be; do
> not take the H1N1
> vaccine shot. just stay robustley healthy and take
> the recommended
> precautions. It seems that the vaccine could be worse
> that the swineflu
> itself.
> V.

DAR
I encourage you to post this, and things like this in the science section of our freethinker forum. Here is the link:

viewforum.php?f=4

This is Darrel responding, and speaking only for myself...

I watched the first one, and in my opinion, she seems like a very nice and sincere nun. I see lots of claims and very little backed up (partly because a youtube video is hardly the format to make/confirm scientific claims like this). She says her information/claims are things "anyone can look up" and confirm. That may be true, or it may not be. It seems to me that if she had solid data backing up her claims she would write this up in a paper for review rather than ad lib a youtube video filled with claims which then puts the burden upon the viewer to look up her many claims and confirm them, or not. Almost everyone won't, and won't even know how to begin to, and like you will believe and follow her information thinking such caution is the best approach. Unfortunately, such a method of disseminating information is how quacks operate (I am not saying she is a quack) and predictably I see her information being passed around on conspiracy anti-vaccine sites all over the internet (Alex Jones, infowars etc.).

This is not how good science is done.

I have never had a flu vaccine and don't intend to get one this go around, but put me down as quite skeptical of her claims.

For a good overview of the data on vaccines, and much info debunking the unscientific claims of the anti-vaccine folks, here is a good start:

http://sciencebasedmedicine.org/referen ... nd-autism/

regards,

Darrel.

> ----- Original Message -----
> Subject: Please take the time to view this
> nun's information about
> swine flu
>
> Hi my friends,
>
> I know we all do not have much spare time, but
> this is very
> important and if you want to have very concise info about
> the back story about
> the swine flu/swine flu vaccine...it is more than worth
> your while to listen
> carefully to these videos. They are breath-taking. And will
> be very important.
> Please pass on to friends.
>
> Please take the time to listen, especially to the part
> in the first video
> that talks about the " mistake' that Baxter ,a
> large vaccine company in Europe,
> made earlier this year that sent a very dangerous
> avian flu virus
> (that was deadly) mixed into the seasonal flu vaccine
> that was supposed to
> be given in Europe. It is unlikely given scientific
> protocols in labs that this
> could be a mistake. This nun's information is not from
> the alternative
> press/medicine side, rather she uses only strong
> information from
> reliable,excellent sources and she is very
> effective...this makes her
> information very important. It does take some time to
> review it ,but you
> won't be sorry. Even if you list to just the first two,
> it is worthwhile.
>
> S.
>
> This exceptional video series by a Spanish Nun
> (English Subtitles)
> who is also an MD and a PhD in Public Health is a clear,
> cogent presentation of
> the facts about the Swine Flu Each segment is about 9
> minutes long and
> each is a "Must See"
> Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0JqQyl09zQ
> Part
> 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAmbOrVx ... re=related
> Part
> 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqOqo-Zo6Ao&NR=1
> Part
> 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Ea_yCu ... re=related
> Part
> 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMgH27Jl ... re=related
> Part
> 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9_A588m ... re=related
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Doug »

Darrel wrote: VM wrote: From: VM: Please take the time to view this nun's information about swine flu
DOUG
A nun, eh? Ever heard of the fallacy of appeal to unqualified authority? Can my plumber write a rebuttal? How about my bicycle mechanic? At least they've studied real subjects that require some measure of expertise, unlike the nun...
"We could have done something important Max. We could have fought child abuse or Republicans!" --Oona Hart (played by Victoria Foyt), in the 1995 movie "Last Summer in the Hamptons."
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

Well there was the bit about... "who is also an MD and a PhD in Public Health"

Which seems to be legit. Apparently the doctor thing didn't work out, now she's a nun.
She has also written a book going after pharmaceutical companies. She hates them.
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Doug »

Darrel wrote:Well there was the bit about... "who is also an MD and a PhD in Public Health"

Which seems to be legit. Apparently the doctor thing didn't work out, now she's a nun.
She has also written a book going after pharmaceutical companies. She hates them.
DOUG
Degrees don't always make for expertise. I know two guys with Ph.D.'s in philosophy that are so dumb they believe that the Bible has no errors. And each of them have theology degrees. I know a guy with a Ph.D. in biology that is a creationist and a young-earth creationist at that. I have debated all these guys, by the way.

Usually, expertise in science is best determined by the body of one's work, especially peer-reviewed journal articles.
"We could have done something important Max. We could have fought child abuse or Republicans!" --Oona Hart (played by Victoria Foyt), in the 1995 movie "Last Summer in the Hamptons."
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

Hey, remember Tim Brooker, the guy with that AM radio show where we took on Hovind? Brooker claimed to have two doctorates (and he was an IDIOT). I remember buttering him up about it as we went after Hovind for having a fake one from "Patriot U."
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Post by Doug »

Darrel wrote:I remember buttering him up about it as we went after Hovind for having a fake one from "Patriot U."
DOUG
Yes, good old P.U. Well-named.
"We could have done something important Max. We could have fought child abuse or Republicans!" --Oona Hart (played by Victoria Foyt), in the 1995 movie "Last Summer in the Hamptons."
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

From an exchange with a friend regarding Chiropractic for an infant. Perhaps of interest:

***
> I'd be happy to know what your
> findings are regarding Cranio-Sacral.

DAR
Okay good. I'll give my two cents for what it is worth. Don't get mad at me. Some people have almost religious beliefs about their medical therapies. It's almost like religion and politics, one of those things people don't talk about too much.

I don't know about Cranio-Sacral specifically, but I do know a bit about Chiropractic, and babies. Best to keep those two apart.

>
> [baby] has been pushing her head back a lot which is not
> normal so my sister suggested Cranio-Sacral. Very skeptical
> I looked up info online and asked my Pediatrician (who
> didn't know what it was). So finally took her to
> Dr. [...] in [...] and the axis at the base of
> the skull was off to the right a little so getting that
> fixed in hopes that will solve the issue.>>

DAR
Where to start...

My background. I used to believe in all sorts of "alternative" stuff. Piles and piles of it. For many years. You wouldn't believe. Then about 15 years ago I started to examine these piles and piles of claims more carefully. I learned about critical (not cynical) thinking. Now I am quite skeptical of the "alternative" category (that's not to say there aren't lots of problems and short comings in the regular category, there are!). It boils down to this: there is evidence based medicine and then there is everything else. The alternative stuff is in the "everything else" category and one should be a little extra careful when dabbling in it. Once in a while things in the "alternative" category get proven in a rigorous manner and then they get put in the evidenced based category. And that's a good thing. The people working in the "alternative" category are overwhelmingly sincere, hardworking and often have better "people skills" than those in the other group! But sincere doesn't get the job done when it comes to medical claims!

Now, chiropractic. It's in that "other" category. The entire foundation of chiropractic rests upon the unscientific hypothesis of "subluxations." It can be and has been shown to be useful for some back pain but this doesn't necessarily show there is anything to this sublixation theory. Trouble is, because they are not "regular" doctors the field is filled with quackery, so you have to be extra careful. Lot's of chiropractors believe in and promote quack therapies some of which I have experienced first hand, such as "Applied Kinesiology," see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology

This is an entirely bogus category of diagnosis that anyone can debunk themselves with a simple blind test (in fact it qualifies for our thousand dollar award for a demonstration of something paranormal, if you can find someone using this and they are willing to be tested in an extremely simple little test, I'll give them a thousand dollars and you a $1,000 finders fee). I know of one local chiropractor doing this but he isn't interested in having his claim tested even though he knows about the offer.

Anyway... there are lots of other examples of completely unscientific therapies that are put forward by chiropractors. So you have to be very careful. My sister referred me to a fellow she knew and was regularly referring through her massage therapy service. He did the old "one leg is longer than the other" bit and then used a little clicking device (an "Integrator") on my spine which supposedly corrected this. Complete nonsense. His measurements before and after were completely subjective (this has been tested by the way). And then I caught him doctoring, with a felt pen, my x-ray. Waste of money, but no harm done. Some people go to chiropractors to get relief from colds and some chiropractors promote this idea, this is because many of them don't even believe in the germ theory of disease, something that was well established a 120 years ago and is about as controversial in science as the idea that the earth goes around the sun.

Usually you will just waste your money but some things can be dangerous, especially for babies who really don't have a choice! It's one thing when an adult goes to have a little back or neck pain relieved but getting babies adjusted... that's a little scary. I want to scare you a little bit. They should never be doing adjustments on babies. Some chiropractors do this. A babies bones are soft and not fully formed. But since chiropractors swim in this sea of pseudo science, you don't know what you are going to get. This is why I encourage you to be extra skeptical here (be skeptical of your regular doctor too, hence the need to get a second or third opinion if is about something important like surgery).

On cranio sacral therapy, consider this:

http://www.skepdic.com/craniosacral.html

But that one's a little too nice. This one is much better, written by a fellow I have talked with on the phone:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... anial.html

In my opinion, this is complete foo foo. Ask your pediatrician.


> I'm
> getting a few weeks of chiropractic care to ease issues
> I'm having(can't afford to go longer). We just have
> 1 treatment each for the next 5 weeks.
>
> I appreciate your input.
>
> [...]

DAR
Okay, a few things for you to read.

Here is a nice short overview of chiropractic:

http://www.skepdic.com/chiro.html

Many more links in the footnotes.

If you have a great deal of time on your hands, here is the absolute mother lode of material skeptical of chiropractic:

http://www.chirobase.org/

There is also a good two page article in my latest issue of Skeptic magazine. It's not available online so I will scan it in and include it as an attachment. After the cranial sacral article, read this perhaps first.

Hope this helps. Don't be mad at me!

D.
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Re: From the Mailbag

Post by Dardedar »

Perhaps of interest:

****
Dear Sir,

I recently published a book, “Is Our Vision of God Obsolete? Often What We Believe is Not What We Observe.” It might be of interest to your students. Many chapters are written for young non-believers to support their nontraditional views about god (using science) for those who are raised by non-believing parents. My book compares modern scientific discoveries with traditional religious dogma. It was not written to promote atheism but to suggest that our religious beliefs are due for a change and that a major change is about to come. Following is a brief description of my book as described on my publisher’s website:

“Our vision of God varies by culture. It has changed over the millennia. We no longer believe in the pagan gods of the Romans and Greeks. Why should we expect that our current view of God will not change? Scientific knowledge and discovery is occurring at a pace never before experienced in human history. Yet our concept of God remains mired in the 15th century. This is about to change. It will become increasingly difficult for religions to convince believers educated in modern science to blindly accept as truth religious dogmas conceived centuries ago. Religious scripture is a combination of literature, myth and superstition. Science will invalidate many false myths. This is why intelligent design advocates fear science.”

My book describes how modern scientific discovery makes most religious dogmas obsolete. It suggests that concepts of God have changed over the millennia and that a significant change is about to occur, particularly the belief in the divinity of Jesus. This is not only due to scientific discovery but also a change in the views about God by the Catholic Church itself. I discuss this extensively in my book and on my website devoted to marketing my book.

I invite you to view my book’s website being hosted by Verizon. Please click on the following link: Vision of God. The site provides information about my book and also provides links to four other websites which provide even further information. Two of the links will also you to read portions of my book online or download them into your own computer or other reading device. I hope you will take the time to review my new book. I would be glad to send you a pre-publication copy of my book in print or electronic form if you would like to review my book’s content.

Sincerely,

G.R. Pafumi

Author

P.S. If you are receiving this message in text mode, following is the actual URL to my site hosted on Verizon.

http://mysite.verizon.net/resuyl5e/visionofgod/
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