Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Discussing all things political in NW Arkansas and beyond.
L.Wood
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:21 am

Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by L.Wood »

.
Rather than scattering Romney posts all over the forum I'm suggesting we condense them in one place, here.

The title is taken from Jan 13th NYT's by Princeton economist and NYT's columnist Paul Krugman article Untruths, Wholly Untrue, And Nothing But Untruths

"I was deeply radicalized by the 2000 election. At first I couldn’t believe that then-candidate George W. Bush was saying so many clearly, provably false things; then I couldn’t believe that nobody in the news media was willing to point out the lies. (At the time, the Times actually told me that I couldn’t use the l-word either). That was when I formulated my “views differ on shape of planet” motto.

Now, however, Mitt Romney seems determined to rehabilitate Bush’s reputation, by running a campaign so dishonest that it makes Bush look like a model of truth-telling.

I mean, is there anything at all in Romney’s stump speech that’s true? It’s all based on attacking Obama for apologizing for America, which he didn’t, on making deep cuts in defense, which he also didn’t, and on being a radical redistributionist who wants equality of outcomes, which he isn’t. When the issue turns to jobs, Romney makes false assertions both about Obama’s record and about his own. I can’t find a single true assertion anywhere.

And he keeps finding new frontiers of falsehood. Thegood people at CBPP find him asserting, with regard to programs aiding low-income Americans, that

"What unfortunately happens is with all the multiplicity of federal programs, you have massive overhead, with government bureaucrats in Washington administering all these programs, very little of the money that’s actually needed by those that really need help, those that can’t care for themselves, actually reaches them."

which is utterly, totally untrue. Administrative costs are actually quite small, and between 91 and 99 percent of spending, depending on the program, does in fact go to beneficiaries.

.
"Blessed is the Lord for he avoids Evil just like the Godfather, he delegates."
Betty Bowers
ghost
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:34 am
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by ghost »

"Administrative costs are actually quite small, and between 91 and 99 percent of spending, depending on the program, does in fact go to beneficiaries."

Any documentation for that? Because I can't see that locally, much less at the federal level.
User avatar
Dardedar
Site Admin
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Fayetteville
Contact:

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by Dardedar »

ghost wrote:"Administrative costs are actually quite small, and between 91 and 99 percent of spending, depending on the program, does in fact go to beneficiaries."
Any documentation for that? Because I can't see that locally, much less at the federal level.
Easy:

"The table below shows Social Security administrative expenses, by trust fund. Since 1989, such expenses have totaled one percent or less of combined expenditures from the trust funds."

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/admin.html
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
L.Wood
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by L.Wood »

.
Any documentation for that? Because I can't see that locally, much less at the federal level.
Is your query, containing an assertion, based upon your examination of actual program numbers? Which locally administered, federal program
did you examine? Do you have any actual numbers related to local programs to share and establish your assertion?

Is your "can't see that locally" based upon a hunch? Hearsay?

Are we to assume you've examined local government programs and decided, from evidence, that great leakage occurs?

.
"Blessed is the Lord for he avoids Evil just like the Godfather, he delegates."
Betty Bowers
ghost
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:34 am
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by ghost »

L.Wood wrote:.
Any documentation for that? Because I can't see that locally, much less at the federal level.
Is your query, containing an assertion, based upon your examination of actual program numbers? Which locally administered, federal program
did you examine? Do you have any actual numbers related to local programs to share and establish your assertion?

Is your "can't see that locally" based upon a hunch? Hearsay?

Are we to assume you've examined local government programs and decided, from evidence, that great leakage occurs?

.
Once upon a time, I worked for a government entity. The amount of waste was staggering. I bet we were overstaffed by a factor of 3. But there's no reason to be efficient. Instead of cutting costs or firing worthless employees (of which there were many), we'd just go the legislature asking for more tax dollars.

I'm guessing that Social Security's "low" administrative costs are due mostly to the fact that the program is so massive. In other words, if we decided tomorrow that we needed to double benefits, the administrative costs would stay the same, but they'd now be 0.5% instead of 1%.

Let's put this in perspective here....its administrative expenses were $6.5 billion.

As a comparison, Visa processed 62 billion transactions worth $4.4 trillion 2009 and had a revenue of roughly $8 billion. Of that, $3 billion was profit. So even including their profit, Visa's entire share of "administrative costs" (for comparison to SS) was only 0.18%.

So, 5x more efficient than social security.
User avatar
Dardedar
Site Admin
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Fayetteville
Contact:

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by Dardedar »

So let's see. Ghost comes along and challenges the claim that:

"Administrative costs are actually quite small, and between 91 and 99 percent of spending, depending on the program, does in fact go to beneficiaries."

He asks:
Any documentation for that? Because I can't see that locally, much less at the federal level.
When he is given data showing it's actually less than one percent with a classic example like social security... does he say thank you for that, I learned something new? No, he pivots and tries to compare administration of a government program that serves 50 million people, with Visa swipe transactions. Hilarious!

This conservative is at least creative. Good.
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
User avatar
David Franks
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:02 am
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50
Location: Outside Fayetteville, Arkansas

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by David Franks »

ghost wrote:Once upon a time, I worked for a government entity. The amount of waste was staggering. I bet we were overstaffed by a factor of 3.
Why didn't you quit?

Hypocrite.
"Debating with a conservative is like cleaning up your dog's vomit: It is an inevitable consequence of your association, he isn't much help, and it makes very clear the fact that he will swallow anything."
ghost
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:34 am
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by ghost »

Darrel wrote:
When he is given data showing it's actually less than one percent with a classic example like social security... does he say thank you for that, I learned something new? No, he pivots and tries to compare administration of a government program that serves 50 million people, with Visa swipe transactions. Hilarious!

This conservative is at least creative. Good.
What else do you propose to compare it to? I compared it to a service serving FAR more than 50 million people, that does something similar: it processes transactions that are mostly flow through. Not terribly different than SS.

Is it hilarious that you don't have anything to say about it? Or hilarious that a private company can do something similar to the government (except that their customers do it voluntarily), be 5x more efficient, and make a shitload of money in the process?

You act as if 1% is good. It's still over $6B we're talking about here. Good compared to what?
ghost
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:34 am
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by ghost »

David Franks wrote:
ghost wrote:Once upon a time, I worked for a government entity. The amount of waste was staggering. I bet we were overstaffed by a factor of 3.
Why didn't you quit?

Hypocrite.
I guess in your haste to start calling names, you didn't actually read my post:
Once upon a time, I worked for a government entity.
Past tense. And I did quit. I worked there 6 months.
User avatar
David Franks
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:02 am
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50
Location: Outside Fayetteville, Arkansas

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by David Franks »

ghost wrote:
David Franks wrote:Past tense. And I did quit. I worked there 6 months.
Took you long enough.
"Debating with a conservative is like cleaning up your dog's vomit: It is an inevitable consequence of your association, he isn't much help, and it makes very clear the fact that he will swallow anything."
ghost
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:34 am
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by ghost »

David Franks wrote:
ghost wrote:
David Franks wrote:Past tense. And I did quit. I worked there 6 months.
Took you long enough.
Well I do have personal responsibilities and bills to pay. I know you liberals don't really understand that.
User avatar
David Franks
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:02 am
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50
Location: Outside Fayetteville, Arkansas

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by David Franks »

ghost wrote:Well I do have personal responsibilities and bills to pay. I know you liberals don't really understand that.
I'm glad to know that you are able to prioritize your principles to your own advantage. It makes you a real conservative.
"Debating with a conservative is like cleaning up your dog's vomit: It is an inevitable consequence of your association, he isn't much help, and it makes very clear the fact that he will swallow anything."
User avatar
Dardedar
Site Admin
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Fayetteville
Contact:

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by Dardedar »

ghost wrote:
Darrel wrote: When he is given data showing it's actually less than one percent with a classic example like social security... does he say thank you for that, I learned something new? No, he pivots and tries to compare administration of a government program that serves 50 million people, with Visa swipe transactions. Hilarious!
GH
What else do you propose to compare it to?
Let's review, you challenge the claim that "Administrative costs are actually quite small, and between 91 and 99 percent of spending, depending on the program, does in fact go to beneficiaries." And when served up a specific referenced example, you don't acknowledge it, you reach for some absurd, breathtakingly stupid comparison with electronic Visa card swipes. You really can't see how stupid that is? Having a government agency that oversees and administers insurance benefits (never mind screening those qualified and cutting and mailing checks to 50+ million people each month), with a card swipe? That's not just stupid, that's like libertarian Ron Paul supporter stupid.
Not terribly different than SS.
Yes, because a card swipe is so comparable to administering an insurance benefits program. This is your problem, you aren't honest with language.
You act as if 1% is good.
Administering a huge government program with less than 1% administration cost isn't "good?" Are you insane? Aside from your absurd comparison, I think this exchange speaks for itself. You start with wanking about the claim of 1%-9% costs, as if that was a stretch, and when a perfect example is handed to you, you don't learn something new, you don't acknowledge that your challenge was specifically met, you work to protect your rightwing ideology and political bias and make stuff up. You do double back flips and do every to avoid admitting that your challenge was in fact specifically met, to a tee.
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
L.Wood
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by L.Wood »

.
ghost:
Past tense. And I did quit. I worked there 6 months.
and this 6 mo stay enabled you to determine this gubmint program was inefficient? Did you save some numbers?
no. of clients served? Budget of office? Area served? Nature of service provided?

Actually sounds impressionistic to me. You made it quite obvious you haven't an inkling of what services S.S. provides- the local
interviews they must administer, the medical exams and reports they must review, death certificate review and filings. The list
could be much longer.

Ever had a credit card stolen? I have. Once it happens and you must engage with a credit card company you will understand
why they have such a low overhead, service is skimpy to non-existent.
"Blessed is the Lord for he avoids Evil just like the Godfather, he delegates."
Betty Bowers
L.Wood
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by L.Wood »

.

Oh, Look, Romney Attacked Kennedy’s Blind Trust During 1994 Senate Race

"Mitt Romney, who was slightly more humanoid in 1994 than he is today, also thought blind trusts, of which he has one, and which he passionately defended during Thursday night’s Jacksonville debate, were terrible, devious things. How exactly did he put it? Oh yes, a blind trust is an “age-old ruse.”

Wonkette has story and video here

.
"Blessed is the Lord for he avoids Evil just like the Godfather, he delegates."
Betty Bowers
User avatar
Dardedar
Site Admin
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Fayetteville
Contact:

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by Dardedar »

Romney Urged Obama To Embrace Individual Mandate In 2009

"In July 2009, Mitt Romney called on President Obama to require Americans to buy insurance as part of his health care plan, using “tax penalties” as a backstop — in other words, the individual mandate that Republicans virulently oppose.

In a USA Today op-ed titled “Mr. President, What’s the Rush?,” which has since been removed but remains available on MittRomneyCentral.com, Romney urged Obama to look to his Massachusetts health care plan that contained the same policy, and touted it as effective.

“First, we established incentives for those who were uninsured to buy insurance,” Romney wrote. “Using tax penalties, as we did, or tax credits, as others have proposed, encourages ‘free riders’ to take responsibility for themselves rather than pass their medical costs on to others.”

Talking Points Memo
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
User avatar
Dardedar
Site Admin
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Fayetteville
Contact:

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by Dardedar »

Romney campaign accepts Ted Nugent's endorsement (note, the Walton Art's Center is hosting Nugent in a concert next month). Romney may end up having to flipflop on this one:

Summary of a 1998 radio interview with Nugent:

***
TED NUGENT (4/26/98) For some reason, I have a vivid recollection of hearing “Where Have You Been All My Life” (from Ted Nugent’s eponymous LP) on the juke box at a pizza place sometime in the mid 70s when I was I was in my mid teens. I don’t know why it made such an impression. I guess it just condensed everything juvenile about being, uh, juvenile. Unfortunately, Ted never progresses beyond his teenaged mentality as evidenced by this episode of Behind The Music. Ted spends the bulk of this program proving what a hypocrite he is. He lambastes drug users and alcohol drinkers, but repeatedly admits (without a trace of humility, however) to being a serial pedophile. Two relationships (one with his wife and one with “muse” Pele Massa, who was 17 when they started dating) were ended due to Ted’s infidelity while on the road, often with underage women. But Ted justifies his behavior with one of his trademark funny expressions: “alternative flesh management.” And look, I’m not anti hunting, I mean I don’t exactly dig the meat industry, but Ted has this attitude that you’re somehow stupid if you don’t hunt. I just think it’s unrealistic to believe that suddenly a nation of 290 million or so people are going to head to the woods every night before dinner. What is really surprising is his disdain for both fans and fellow band members. Both of which were necessary for his, um, success. Ted accuses fans of being unable to handle the energy of his shows when they behave violently, although tons of other bands have high energy shows without incident. And his determination to subdue singer Derek St. Holmes, resulting in his quitting the band seems incredibly pointless and stupid. You just have to laugh (well, I did) when they get to the part where Ted finds out that his management has blown all his money on chinchillas and horses. My favorite piece of Nuge-stalgia, however, is the video for his 1982 song “Bound And Gagged”. Ostensibly this song is in protest of the 1979 Iranian “hostage crisis”, but in reality it’s just an excuse for Ted to whine about flag burning while he and his band prance about in pastel spandex. Of course Ted never mentions the CIA’s coup of democratically elected Mohammad Mossadeq, and the atrocities of the US backed Shah that led to the revolution in ‘79. Oh well. And then, there’s Damn Yankees. Ouch! Ultimately Ted comes off like you or me when we were maybe 19 and we thought we had the answers to everything (apologies to all you 19 year old know it alls), and it was impossible to consider another view point. But Ted is still like that, and he’s in his fifties. I guess he plays guitar pretty well, though. (CB)" Rock the Music

Via: Romney Supporter Nugent Admitted to Multiple Affairs With Underage Girls in '98 VH1 Documentary
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
User avatar
Dardedar
Site Admin
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Fayetteville
Contact:

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by Dardedar »

Image
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
User avatar
Dardedar
Site Admin
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Fayetteville
Contact:

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by Dardedar »

This is a about two weeks out of date but close enough:

The average of the last 12 polls (taken by ABC) of Obama's favorability rating, gives 57.8%.
http://www.pollingreport.com/obama_fav.htm (see CNN, FOX etc., at that link, all of them putting him in the 50's)

The average the last 12 polls (ABC, see also others) of Romney's favorability, gives 35.0%
http://www.pollingreport.com/r.htm#Romney
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
User avatar
Dardedar
Site Admin
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Fayetteville
Contact:

Re: Romney Watch: New Frontiers of Falsehood

Post by Dardedar »

Image

Chronicling Mitt's Mendacity, Vol. XV

By Steve Benen - Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:11 PM EDT

Associated Press
After winning several more presidential primaries this week, Mitt Romney delivered a speech his campaign billed as the unofficial kickoff of the general election. And while making his pitch as the presumptive Republican nominee, the former governor said President Obama intends to "run a campaign of ... distortions."

I very nearly fell out of my chair. After watching Romney closely for years, I've never seen any candidate in either party run a campaign of distortions as shamelessly as this guy, and this claim seemed to take the "I'm rubber, you're glue" tactic to new levels.

To appreciate the scope of Romney's distortions, consider the 15th installment of my weekly series, chronicling Mitt's mendacity.

1. Romney argued in Pennsylvania earlier this week that President Obama has "apologized for America."

The fact that Romney continues to repeat this lie every day is pretty depressing.

2. The Romney campaign argued this week that college tuition costs are going up is because "this president decided to take over the student loan market."

As a matter of policy, that's ridiculous, and as a matter of accuracy, it's completely untrue.

3. Romney continues to push the line that under Obama, "the number of new business start-ups per year has dropped by 100,000 per year."

That's not even close to being true.

4. Romney said in New Hampshire this week that he wants to help rescue "the mom and dad who never thought they'd be on food stamps."

He neglected to mention that he endorsed a budget plan that slashes food stamps.

5. He also said he wants to look out for "grandparents who can't afford the gas to visit their grandchildren."

Romney plans to turn Medicare into a voucher program, which increases costs for seniors. He's also vowed to bring back Medicare Part D's "donut hole," which will quickly raise prescription drug costs for grandparents nationwide.

6. In the same speech, Romney said, "With Obamacare fully installed, government will come to control half the economy."

That's the opposite of the truth.

7. Romney added that under Obama, "we will have effectively ceased to be a free enterprise society."

No one can seriously believe such nonsense.

8. Romney vowed, "[W]e will stop the unfairness of one generation passing larger and larger debts on to the next."

That's misleading in important ways. Romney's platform calls for massive tax breaks that he can't pay for, which necessarily means growing the national debt.

9. The Romney campaign argued this week that the candidate hasn't endorsed "self-deportation" as an immigration policy.

Romney, earlier this year, explicitly endorsed "self-deportation."

10. The Romney campaign argued this week that under Obama, "the youth unemployment rate is double the unemployment rate for all Americans."

That's wildly misleading, too.

A few months ago, Fox News' Brit Hume, reflecting on Romney's flip-flops, said, "You're only allowed a certain number of flips before people begin to doubt your character."

I'm curious -- is Romney also allowed a certain number of falsehoods before people begin to doubt his character? And if so, what is that number?

***

That's just ONE WEEK of Mittens!

Go here to see...

Previous editions of Chronicling Mitt's Mendacity: Vol. I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII, XIII, XIV

Each point/claim is referenced with a link.
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
Post Reply