CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORY?

Discussing all things political in NW Arkansas and beyond.
Post Reply
User avatar
Betsy
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:02 am

CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORY?

Post by Betsy »

I've heard this conspiracy theory many times and always pooh-poohed it - and still do, really - but just for the sake of discussion here it is.

A guy in our office is convinced that President Bush and his own personal axis of evil totally planned and executed the events of 9/11. He finds articles in the paper that back up his theory and was copying yet another one yesterday. The article yesterday had an excerpt from a report by the administration about how difficult it would be to engage in war unless there was an event like another Pearl Harbor - so that's the motive.

He has all kinds of things he rants about, like the owner of the flight school in Florida where the terrorists went is someone close to the administration, and they were actually there at the flight school on 9/11 (whoopee), and how Bush flew bin Laden's family out of the U.S. that day, meanwhile all other flights were grounded...etc.

The guy at work is so completely certain that Bush et al were behind 9/11 that it does start to make you wonder sometimes. What do you guys think?
User avatar
Hogeye
Posts: 1047
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:33 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Contact:

Post by Hogeye »

I've heard that before - there are a bunch of web sites about that theory. (Does your coworker believe the planes were guided remotely?) As I recall, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence for the theory - but that's all.

The "administration report" you refer to is not official; it is a position paper for the thinktank Project for the New American Century called Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategies, Forces, And Resources For A New Century (PDF). Basically the paper says that "America should seek to preserve and extend its position of global leadership by maintaining the preeminence of U.S. military forces." Yes - hard-core empire-building, warmongering, USEmpire uber alles type shit. The full Pearl Harbor quote is: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

For a summary of various 911 conspiracy theories, see Wikipedia 9/11 conspiracy theories.

I'm more inclined to the LIHOP (they let it happen on purpose) theory than the MIHOP (they made it happen on purpose) theory. I think it was opportunistic, like Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor. (Nowadays they know that the Jap ciphers were busted and FDR knew it was coming and let it happen.) The incentive for war is great among "failed" presidents. FDR wanted to be a glorious war president rather than a failed depression president; Clinton wanted to be a popular war president rather than the guy who got a blowjob in the oral office; Bush wanted to be popular and wealthier rather than a buffoon. War is such that the rulers get all the potential benefits, but the costs are shoved onto the subjects.

Some conspiracy theories are kind of "out there," but conspiracy theories in general have some good - they show people are thinking, and trying to find rational answers and identify human choices (as opposed to taking the government line or falling for deterministic historical necessity explanations.) Thus, freethinkers should appreciate conspiracy theorists - their hearts are in the right place, even if some of the particular theories are looney.

(Another one that I believe in myself is that United Flight 93 was shot down by the US military. Eyewitnesses and debris pattern support this.)
Last edited by Hogeye on Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"May the the last king be strangled in the guts of the last priest." - Diderot
With every drop of my blood I hate and execrate every form of tyranny, every form of slavery. I hate dictation. I love liberty. - Ingersoll
User avatar
Betsy
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:02 am

Post by Betsy »

Very interesting, thanks. And he says the military shot down Flight 93, as well...why would they do that, if we were in control of the "mission" in the first place?
User avatar
Hogeye
Posts: 1047
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:33 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Contact:

Post by Hogeye »

I don't know. The WTC and Pentagon were already hit, so the crisis was already created. And the military didn't want to look totally incompetent. (They took an extraordinarily long time to "scramble.") The various conspiracy theories are not necessarily related; while the "shot down flight 93" may be incompatable with the MIHOP theory, it seems compatible with the LIHOP theory.

Maybe you can get your coworker to log on to this forum, give some links, and explain it to us.
"May the the last king be strangled in the guts of the last priest." - Diderot
With every drop of my blood I hate and execrate every form of tyranny, every form of slavery. I hate dictation. I love liberty. - Ingersoll
JamesH
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:41 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Springfield, MO

Post by JamesH »

I do not believe that the present administration planned the attacks of 9/11 but I do believe that they took the oportunity to exploit it as much as possible. The intelligence that was present before 9/11 may have seemed to far fetched to believe. You refered to the attack on Peral Harbor and just like 9/11 we can look back now and see that there were all kinds of signs that told what the Japanese had planned. But a very important fact to remember is that there had never been a carrier launced air attack before in history. Up until 7 December 1941 a carrier based attack of that size had only been theory.

I believe that the same could be said about 9/11 we can see all of the evidence now but before the attack it was all theory. And we all know how new ideas or poeple thinking "out side of the box" get welcomed with open arms! So I think that even if someone had put all of the pieces of the puzzle together and went to the upper management and told them that 19 guys planned to hijack 4 large airliners and fly them into important building on the east coast of the U.S. I believe that most people not capable of thinking out side of the box would have thought it to far fetched to be possible. That is, until it is accomplished for the first time.

This administration just took advantage of an opportunity to distract the American people to push some very odd agenda including raping the coffers of U. S. government. I am worried that this is all just to see how much money they can make in 8 years and see how far they can push the American people to support stupid policies. Then the Bush administration is going to walk away from all of this leaving a huge world mess that we may or may not be able to recover from and there pockets will be full of U.S. tax payer money.

JamesH
maybe not Rick Baber

Post by maybe not Rick Baber »

Betsy,

That's not a new theory. And it's something you really don't talk about unless you want people to treat you like one of those folks with the tin foil on their heads on some late night TV show that say they were picked up by aliens.

At best, the machine will convince everybody you are some kind of nut. At worst, you might find your brake lines failing somewhere around Mountainburg, lust before you sail off into the abyss; or wake up in your bed some night smelling smoke.

This conversation is one best suited for dimly lit dens over a few bottles of wine, with people you trust with your life - not for public display.
Do I sound paranoid???

I suggest you delete this thread.

BTW: AGAIN, I AM signed in. Can't use my name. Maybe I should check one of my other computers and see if I'm still signed in there???
User avatar
Betsy
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:02 am

Post by Betsy »

hey, what's wrong with having tin foil on your head?

honestly, I think the idea that Bush et al actually made 9/11 happen is preposterous, but the guy at the office (who actually DOES have foil on his head) just goes on and on like I'm stupid for not SEEING THE TRUTH, so I was just wanting to get some other opinions.

That Bush et al has taken advantage of the situation as described by JamesH above is so obvious it's really difficult to understand how those FOOLS (oops, now Jesus is going to be pissed at me) on NWAP.com (and others) can resolutely stand by their support of the pres (et al).
User avatar
Betsy
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:02 am

Post by Betsy »

PS Baber, you actually "logged in" with your name and password?
User avatar
Dardedar
Site Admin
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
Location: Fayetteville
Contact:

Post by Dardedar »

DAR
Betsy, probably the best 9/11 conspiracy debunking article I have seen (and had recommended from reputable sources I trust like Skeptic magazine) is this one:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... 27842.html

It probably deals directly with all of your acquaintances main points. I haven't read all of it because I can't get interested enough in some of these claims to even read the debunk anymore. That said, I am open to the idea that the government may have shot down flight 93 but I think that far less likely than the very plausible official story that it was flying full speed (600+ mph) at low altitude and with a little fight in the cockpit it was down and into the dirt very quickly.

I am also suspicious of the flight 800 explosion (leaving NY) but have not investigated it. I also haven't gotten around to reading the response to why the airforce was so slow to scramble around NY on 9/11. But in my experience the human tendency for error and incompetence, especially in stressful panic situation is almost beyond the ability to exaggerate.

D.
---------------------
"A National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect study checked all 12,000 known reports of organized, intergenerational Satanic cult abuse. Not one could be substantiated." --Tom Flynn, Secular Humanist Bulletin, Vol. 11, # 1, Spring 1995.
User avatar
Savonarola
Mod@Large
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:11 pm
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50
Location: NW Arkansas

Post by Savonarola »

Darrel wrote:I am also suspicious of the flight 800 explosion (leaving NY) but have not investigated it.
I have a book that analyzes the TWA flight 800 crash. It's not exactly objective, but it makes a decent case for the plane being hit by a military training missile that was aimed at a dummy target. I could try to remember to pick it up before I leave my hometown this weekend if someone would like to borrow it.
Barbara Fitzpatrick

Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

I truly, truly hate falling into the "frame" of 12/7=9/11 analogies (maybe Danny Quayle was giving us a hint when he talked about remember the 7th of September) - The Japanese code was cracked, but the Japanese didn't mention a date, nor exactly what they were going to do. The military had been on alert the previous weekend and were told to stand down because you can't stay on alert without losing alertness. The final (13th) part of the message that basically said "War" was not deciphered until the day of the attack (the "withdrawal of papers" was supposed to happen about 15 minutes before the attack, but the Japanese ambassadors didn't decipher as fast as our crytologists) - and the Army-Navy service rivalry meant the "return to alert" message didn't arrive until after the attack (went by Western Union, regular delivery, instead of naval ship-to-shore communications). Aside from which, this was a full military fleet - 6 fully-loaded flattops with supporting battleships, cruisers (heavy and light), destroyers, subs, etc. of a sovereign nation at war. That has no similarity at all to a bunch of religious fanatics stealing a few commercial airplanes and turning them into suicide bombs.

The only similarities are that we couldn't tell exactly when and where Al Queda would hit us. However, the "they let it happen" theory is more than possible, considering what we keep finding about prior intelligence. If nothing else, SAC or the local Air National Guard should have scrambled within 10 minutes of those planes going off course. Within 20 minutes, those planes should have been shot down. (My personal theory is that's what bin Ladin was planning - to make Americans shoot down their own commercial liners - and the failure of our guys to do that basically sent bin Ladin the signal that Allah was on his side.) What would have been even more effective, of course, would have been to reinforce - or weld shut - the door between the passenger and pilot cabins when the Clinton people handed all their terrorism information over to Bush's team, but we're not supposed to go into that.

W & Co needed a war, any war would do. They went for Iraq as thanks to the neocon funding (& possible stealing) of their elections, but anything that allowed W to get those oft-touted "war powers" was all he wanted. That's the "thin edge of the wedge" to bust our Constitution wide open. It has to be power they are after, with money as an afterthought, because our money is only based on the "full faith" of the U.S. government - and they are bankrupting the government. (If the government goes down, the U.S. dollar is toilet paper.)
User avatar
Savonarola
Mod@Large
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:11 pm
antispam: human non-spammer
Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 50
Location: NW Arkansas

Post by Savonarola »

maybe not Rick Baber wrote:BTW: AGAIN, I AM signed in. Can't use my name. Maybe I should check one of my other computers and see if I'm still signed in there???
Baber, if you are indeed signed in, check your private messages. (The link is between the "Profile" link and the "Log out" link at the top of each page.) Also send me a private message. If it does not let you do either, there is a very good chance that you are not really signed in.
If it appears you are logged in, log out, then log in again. As I said earlier, though, if it gives you a place to enter you're name, you aren't logged in.

Make sure your browser is set to accept cookies. You will not be able to log in if cookies are disabled.

If this does not reveal or fix the problem, please start a thread in the Help forum so that each thread can remain on topic.
Coralie

Crazy Conspiracy Theory?

Post by Coralie »

Apparently a substantial number of people in Europe and Canada believe that members of the Bush Administration had at the least foreknowledge of 9/11, if not complicity. And I also read of a poll in NYC that close to half of those polled also had this belief.
I find it quite plausible that SOMEBODY knew about it in advance, enough to make some millions on stock exchange transactions betting against the airlines involved. Bush might have been out of the loop as he so often is--or not.
Out of curiosity, how many people does it take to turn a conspiracy theory into the conventional wisdom? (How many hairs make a beard?)
Post Reply