Laminin

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Re: Laminin

Post by ShayneThill » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:58 am

Savonarola wrote:Here's part of a recent conversation about the same video that is in the OP. All of the biochemistry information below is absolutely true.

> more often times than not it creates the shape of a cross ....
> Although some didn't, many of them had the general shape of a
> cross.
It is not true that more are the shape of a cross than are not. Just count. And they ALL had the general shape of a Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man dancing happily away.
http://www.ml-inflatable.com/cp/html/images/1307116568.gif
But I don't see you crediting Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man. Why not? It's not for a reason that has to do with what the images most resemble, otherwise you'd be changing your religion right now. It has to do with what religion you already have; i.e., confirmation bias.

> Laminin is a cell adhesion molecule
Yes, one of many molecules and structures, each of which have vital roles in keeping us alive. That you have found one of around 30,000 human [poly]peptides that occasionally resembles a certain shape is meaningless -- in fact, it's statistically more likely to find a structure loosely resembling a simple shape like a cross than NOT finding one if there are 30,000 chances. As I have already shown you, not only does laminin hardly resemble a cross in the real world, there are other molecules that do more resemble a cross in the real world. In fact, I can easily come up with molecules of other shapes, but you would dismiss them for no other reason than that they don't fit your confirmation bias:

- Fructose is a sugar that is a necessary part of the process of getting energy from eaten carbohydrates. In solution (as in the body), fructose's center resembles the outline of a pentagram. (And fructose doesn't flex like laminin does, so it *always* has that outline.) Does that mean that Satan designed our digestive enzymes?

- Calmodulin is a really neat enzyme that binds calcium ions and is active in signal transduction and protein targeting in the body. It's shaped kind of like a fist but with its index finger and thumb fully extended. Does this mean that the creator likes playing Cops & Robbers, or just that he likes shooting people? (C'mon, a gun shape used for protein *targeting*? Gotta be an endorsement of the NRA!)

But hey, if you insist on sticking with "cell adhesion molecules," how about the [poly]peptide components of desmosomes (structures that button cells to one another)?
Here's a simple cartoon of a desmosome's parts:
http://www.revespcardiol.org/sites/default/files/elsevier/images/255/255v63n08/grande/255v63n08-13154581fig1.jpg
I see heads with snakes coming out of them. Our creator is Medusa?

Here's desmoplakin, a protein in the desmosome:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Protein_DSP_PDB_1lm5.png
Looks like a curly wig to me. God must be bald.

By the way, do you know what desmosomes need to function? Calcium. So they can't work without calmodulin! God uses a wig to cover the snakes on his head while he plays Cops & Robbers.
This is the conclusion you get when you start trying to ascribe meaning to molecules that participate in cellular [adhesion]. But you and I both know that this approach is silly.

....

> Is this God's signature within us? No one will ever know.
Is it Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man's signature within us? No one will ever know.
Is fructose Satan's signature within us? No one will ever know.
Is hemoglobin's quaternary structure the Flying Spaghetti Monster's signature within us? No one will ever know...

Hahahaha, this looks really like a curly wigs.

Re: Laminin

Post by Savonarola » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:31 am

SOLAGRATIA wrote:The Fool says in his heart, There is no God! Psalm 14:1
The wise man says it aloud.

Re: Laminin

Post by SOLAGRATIA » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:51 pm

The Fool says in his heart, There is no God! Psalm 14:1

Re: Laminin

Post by Savonarola » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:46 am

Here's part of a recent conversation about the same video that is in the OP. All of the biochemistry information below is absolutely true.

> more often times than not it creates the shape of a cross ....
> Although some didn't, many of them had the general shape of a
> cross.
It is not true that more are the shape of a cross than are not. Just count. And they ALL had the general shape of a Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man dancing happily away.
http://www.ml-inflatable.com/cp/html/im ... 116568.gif
But I don't see you crediting Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man. Why not? It's not for a reason that has to do with what the images most resemble, otherwise you'd be changing your religion right now. It has to do with what religion you already have; i.e., confirmation bias.

> Laminin is a cell adhesion molecule
Yes, one of many molecules and structures, each of which have vital roles in keeping us alive. That you have found one of around 30,000 human [poly]peptides that occasionally resembles a certain shape is meaningless -- in fact, it's statistically more likely to find a structure loosely resembling a simple shape like a cross than NOT finding one if there are 30,000 chances. As I have already shown you, not only does laminin hardly resemble a cross in the real world, there are other molecules that do more resemble a cross in the real world. In fact, I can easily come up with molecules of other shapes, but you would dismiss them for no other reason than that they don't fit your confirmation bias:

- Fructose is a sugar that is a necessary part of the process of getting energy from eaten carbohydrates. In solution (as in the body), fructose's center resembles the outline of a pentagram. (And fructose doesn't flex like laminin does, so it *always* has that outline.) Does that mean that Satan designed our digestive enzymes?

- Calmodulin is a really neat enzyme that binds calcium ions and is active in signal transduction and protein targeting in the body. It's shaped kind of like a fist but with its index finger and thumb fully extended. Does this mean that the creator likes playing Cops & Robbers, or just that he likes shooting people? (C'mon, a gun shape used for protein *targeting*? Gotta be an endorsement of the NRA!)

But hey, if you insist on sticking with "cell adhesion molecules," how about the [poly]peptide components of desmosomes (structures that button cells to one another)?
Here's a simple cartoon of a desmosome's parts:
http://www.revespcardiol.org/sites/defa ... 81fig1.jpg
I see heads with snakes coming out of them. Our creator is Medusa?

Here's desmoplakin, a protein in the desmosome:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... B_1lm5.png
Looks like a curly wig to me. God must be bald.

By the way, do you know what desmosomes need to function? Calcium. So they can't work without calmodulin! God uses a wig to cover the snakes on his head while he plays Cops & Robbers.
This is the conclusion you get when you start trying to ascribe meaning to molecules that participate in cellular [adhesion]. But you and I both know that this approach is silly.

....

> Is this God's signature within us? No one will ever know.
Is it Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man's signature within us? No one will ever know.
Is fructose Satan's signature within us? No one will ever know.
Is hemoglobin's quaternary structure the Flying Spaghetti Monster's signature within us? No one will ever know...

Re: Laminin

Post by kwlyon » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:27 pm

Doug wrote:Which would suggest that Satan, who is sometimes represented by an upside-down cross, might be the power holding our cells together!


He does seem to me to be the advocate of man....

Re: Laminin

Post by Doug » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:46 am

RobertMadewell wrote:What is so fascinating to fundies about this molecule seems to be that it is usually depicted in diagrams shaped like a cross.


DOUG
And even if it were shaped like a cross, it does not come with any particular directional orientation. So it could be an upside-down cross just as well as a right-side-up one. Which would suggest that Satan, who is sometimes represented by an upside-down cross, might be the power holding our cells together!

Re: Laminin

Post by Savonarola » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:53 pm

RobertMadewell wrote:My nephew yesterday informed be about laminin. Laminin is a molecule that holds cell membranes together. What is so fascinating to fundies about this molecule seems to be that it is usually depicted in diagrams shaped like a cross.
I ran across this thread yesterday while searching for another, and it reminded me that a student (though not one in my class) approached me a few weeks ago and asked me if I knew what laminin was. She eagerly informed me that it held our bodies together and was shaped like a cross. (It was clear that our anatomy/physiology/creationism teacher had been working her magic again.)

It took me a few minutes, but I obtained a colleague's iPhone and brought up a 3D representation of tRNA-Phe. I went into the girl's class -- where she had continued telling everyone about laminin -- and proceeded to show her that a two-dimensional drawing of a molecule is a poor representation of what the thing really looks like, and that the same applies to laminin.

I saw her face as she died a little inside.

I'm not a total asshole, so that wasn't my goal, but this just demonstrates that building faith upon bullshit is emotionally unhealthy.

Re: Laminin

Post by Jim » Wed May 19, 2010 8:19 am

John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Re: Laminin

Post by JamesH » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:27 pm

Sir,

"I need to see your dog's ass to confirm that I am not alone in this world and that there is a higher power out there guiding my life. And by the way do you have anything with the Virgin Mary?"

Re: Laminin

Post by Savonarola » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:12 pm

Doug wrote:And "dog" backwards is "God"!

Backward dog = God?! That explains this picture! (Warning: arguably NSFW.)

Re: Laminin

Post by Doug » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:28 pm

Savonarola wrote:... can look a lot like a dog with big ears when the lone pairs of electrons are shown.


DOUG
And "dog" backwards is "God"!

Re: Laminin

Post by Savonarola » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:12 pm

RobertMadewell wrote:Seems that plain old methanol can be diagramed as a cross.
And this is yet another case where a 2D representation bastardizes the true structure:

Stereo line drawing:
Image

Ball-and-stick model:
Image

Space-filling model:
Image

Re: Laminin

Post by RobertMadewell » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:28 pm

I did a little research myself. Seems that plain old methanol can be diagramed as a cross. Maybe, it's proof of God too, because if you drink it you'll go blind.
Code: Select all
    H
    |
  H-C-H
    |
    O
    |
    H

Re: Laminin

Post by Savonarola » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:36 pm

JamesH wrote:(double helic? Help me out here Sav!)

Double helix, meaning two helices.

JamesH wrote:is in its normal state it looks a lot like a soccer ball!

That's not how I'd describe it, although Dr. Harter's favorite molecule, C60, looks exactly like a soccer ball:
Image

Most of the time, eukaryotic DNA is compressed into chromosomes, most of which resemble Xs.
Image
This means that God either loves porn flicks or is really good at bowling.

Re: Laminin

Post by Guest » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:27 pm

If I hold my arms straight out to the sides I take on the shape of a cross; If I wear a diaper while I'm at it, it looks like a loin cloth.
Oh my God, I must be Jesus!!
I have a lot of work to do. Top on the list, remove all Christians and start again.

Re: Laminin

Post by JamesH » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:28 pm

I may be mistaken but it seems to me that when DNA (double helic? Help me out here Sav!) is in its normal state it looks a lot like a soccer ball! Soccer is the considered the most popular sport in the world so maybe David Beckham is the source of all life!

Re: Laminin

Post by Doug » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:20 pm

RobertMadewell wrote:The cross shape is a simple geometric pattern. I bet there are many other molecules that can be diagramed as a cross. As a matter of fact, you can unfold a cube into the shape of a cross. Jumping to the conclusion that a molecule that can be diagramed as a cross is significant, is fallacious.


DOUG
Yes, it's definitely a fallacy. More than one.

It is the fallacy of Biased Sample to only look at that one molecule. If it's being a cross (suppose we grant that it is) shows that God made it, why aren't all molecules shaped like crosses, since presumably God made all of them? To select the one cross-shaped molecule as evidence is to take a biased sample. I'm sure we could diagram other molecules, or even this one, as crescent-moon. So would that be evidence for the truth of Islam?

But of course it is not really a cross. To ignore that the molecule could be diagrammed in other ways is also to commit the fallacy of suppressed evidence.

What is funny is that, since the "cross" could also be diagrammed upside down, it could be evidence for the influence of Satan, who is associated with an upside down cross. To only show the "cross" as the Christian symbol and omit that it could be shown upside down (or sideways, or whatever) is to also commit the fallacy of suppressed evidence.

Image
Oh, since DNA polymers can often be shaped as toroids, which resemble crop circles, and crop circles are attributed to aliens, I guess this is evidence for the existence (and interference on a genetic level) for aliens.

Re: Laminin

Post by Savonarola » Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:57 pm

RobertMadewell wrote:I'm not a molecular biologist.
Nor am I, but I can play one on TV, because I'm a biochemist by training.

Let's look at some less dumbed-down representations of laminins:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Notice that the more technical (i.e. accurate) these representations are, the less they resemble a standard cross.

Unfortunately, my quick searching hasn't found any good 3D structures of laminins (possibly because they're much more complex than a simple cross). The visual difference between a 2D representation and a 3D representation can be demonstrated (with beautifully ironic parallelism for this situation) by tRNA; Figure A below shows the standard flat representation (which looks much like a cross, especially viewed upside-down) while Figure B shows a better representation of the 3D structure (which looks nothing like a cross):

Image

RobertMadewell wrote:Can anyone give me some examples of other molecules that have that distinctive shape?
One of my personal favorites is:
Image
... but I have to admit that the names are a significant part of the thrill.

One allotrope of sulfur, S8 looks like a golden crown:
Image

I also like how a model of ethanol:
Image
... can look a lot like a dog with big ears when the lone pairs of electrons are shown.


A large list of molecules with unusual/silly names can be found here.

Re: Laminin

Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick » Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:29 pm

The early Celtic religion usually depicted triangular and 3-pointed images, largely because there are many 3-pointed examples in nature. They believed nature was proof of god(s) - Christians seem to thing god is proof of nature (while, of course, being totally separate from it).

Laminin

Post by RobertMadewell » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:53 am

I posted this on my new blog.

My nephew yesterday informed be about laminin. Laminin is a molecule that holds cell membranes together. What is so fascinating to fundies about this molecule seems to be that it is usually depicted in diagrams shaped like a cross. In this YouTube video, Louie Giglio shows a diagram of it and the audience gasps! Of course, Giglio explains that this is proof of God and that Jesus is holding our cells together.

The cross shape is a simple geometric pattern. I bet there are many other molecules that can be diagramed as a cross. As a matter of fact, you can unfold a cube into the shape of a cross. Jumping to the conclusion that a molecule that can be diagramed as a cross is significant, is fallacious.

This is not much different than classic pareidolia, except that in this case the pattern is not random, but a simple geometric shape. The significance lies in the fact that Christians are taught that the cross has significance. So when a simple geometric pattern shows up in nature, it supposedly prooves that God left his signature in the very structure of the cell?

Edit:

I'm not a molecular biologist. Can anyone give me some examples of other molecules that have that distinctive shape?

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